#WeFiredBruceAllen!!!

[offbyone]

34 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

Would you release your medical records to anyone?  Ever?  Can you imagine if your medical records became as public as Trent Williams would in this matter?  I would say hell no to that too.  

 

For millions of dollars I sure would especially if I am so pissed about it that I am out publicly trashing the organization every chance I got.  Also, why on earth would they become public?  It isn't like the union is going to ask Goodell to give his medical opinion.

[MKnight82]

21 minutes ago, offbyone said:

For millions of dollars I sure would especially if I am so pissed about it that I am out publicly trashing the organization every chance I got.  Also, why on earth would they become public?  It isn't like the union is going to ask Goodell to give his medical opinion.

Parts of it will always become public.  It always does.

[Thaiphoon]

3 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

You keep saying this but I have issue with it. 

First, they've been a pretty terrible medical staff.  I'm sure strength and conditioning has a hand in it too, but our players are hurt all the time. 

I've already agreed they suck at their job (sports injuries/training). This is not in dispute.

What is in dispute is that he claimed they misdiagnosed a cancerous growth and the underlying comment was they told him not to worry about it and poo-pooed any concerns he had about it for 6+ years.

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There was an article that came out when Spencer Long joined the Jets that their staff immediately identified a misdiagnosis the Redskins staff had given on him.  I think their reputation in NFL circles is already pretty bad.  

Yes. Misdiagnosed a knee injury. Yes! I agree they should be fired for that. 

But claiming as he did that they didn't tell him to get a 2nd opinion after it persisted and his assertion of events that the medical staff missed a cancer diagnosis is ludicrous. 

I might go to a podiatrist. He might SUCK at his job (podiatry). But I would be 100% in the wrong if I blame him for misdiagnosing sarcoma. Why? Because.He.Is.Not.An.Oncologist.

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Second, Trent literally had a brush with death in this health scare, its not like hes overreacting to a pimple.  He had a cancerous tumor removed. He was only 30 years old, it was scary.  

His version of events are shaded to provide the most bang for the buck in terms of making it seem like he was minutes from death as a result of the malpractice by the team doctors. The team doctors and the team have not been able to defend themselves in this assertion. So, I'm just supposed to take his word...why?

I mean I get it. He had cancerous growth. It scared him. But with the conflicting targets for his anger and conflicting stories, I'm not completely buying that he was only weeks from death (as was alleged).

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I've never seen anywhere where Trent said they prevented him from getting a second opinion. 

Great. Then this is on him. End of story.

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But a lot of this sounds like grandstanding after the fact now that we know it was something serious.  Trent says his doctors told him it wasn't anything serious.  If my doctor told me that too I wouldn't go out and get a second opinion either.

No. Trent says the team doctors said it wasn't serious when they first looked at it. They are sports medicine doctors. Go back to my podiatrist. Is he going to diagnose sarcoma? Nope.

Team doctors looking at a bump or area on the head where the helmet meets the skin are going to assume it is just swelling. If it persists, they will tell him to get another doctor who specializes in it to look at it. This is what the team has alleged they did. Which is keeping with the doctors' duties as professionals (which is why his slander in this respect is so damaging to them).  

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Would you release your medical records to anyone?  Ever?  Can you imagine if your medical records became as public as Trent Williams would in this matter?  I would say hell no to that too.

A conditional release of the records that ONLY pertain to the issue? Yes. Why wouldn't I if I wanted to prove that I had been wronged? Same with Trent. He can provide a limited release of his records where the initial complaint, treatment, diagnosis, etc... are concerned. Which is what the team is asking for. An independent review of the records that they allege will vindicate them and the doctors. 

Because here's the rub. And make no mistake about it. IF the doctors decide to sue him for his slash and burn slander for the past 10 months, those records will have to be submitted to the court anyway during a discovery phase. Which is why he backtracked a month ago when Bruce had alleged "tell me who to fire and I will" and Trent said "well, I don't want anyone to lose their job." He said that because if he called someone out individually, by name, they have a stronger slander case. 

In fact, if the Redskins do not get the NFL, NFLPA and a 3rd party to review (only those records that pertain to this situation), I'll be hoping that Trent is hauled into court and has to produce them. 

I want to see who is lying. If it's the team, I'll change my stance. If it's Trent (as I believe it is), then I want him to pay a personal penalty for that because he's been cashing in on the "oh you poor guy, they did you wrong not diagnosing cancer" responses that I see ad nauseum while slandering people just so he could use it to negotiate a new contract.

[MKnight82]

34 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Yes. Why wouldn't I if I wanted to prove that I had been wronged?

Because he gains nothing from doing that.  He would be blackballed by the NFL Kaepernick style for suing his team.  He'd get what, a few million dollars?  If he just shuts up and gets traded in the offseason he'll likely get a $60 mil contract extension. 

35 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

IF the doctors decide to sue him for his slash and burn slander for the past 10 months

The NFL trade deadline was Oct 29th, which is less than 2 months ago.  Trent Williams made no public statements until the trade deadline, so you are wildly exaggerating the time period here.  In fact I think he's had maybe 3 press statement since then, one of which was this week in which he just slammed Bruce Allen the whole time.  

38 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

In fact, if the Redskins do not get the NFL, NFLPA and a 3rd party to review (only those records that pertain to this situation), I'll be hoping that Trent is hauled into court and has to produce them. 

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.  You're obviously taking this personally for some reason and are not looking at this rationally. 

39 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

I want to see who is lying.

Neither one is probably lying.  They didn't talk for the entire season, there's probably a lot of miscommunication going on.  

39 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

If it's Trent (as I believe it is), then I want him to pay a personal penalty for that because he's been cashing in on the "oh you poor guy, they did you wrong not diagnosing cancer" responses that I see ad nauseum while slandering people just so he could use it to negotiate a new contract.

He's cashing in how?  He's taken multiple cash penalties from the Redskins for standing up for what he believes in.  He felt slighted and wanted the Redskins to show him some love with a contract extension.  He also wanted the Redskins to replace a pretty poor medical team with a better one, something that should be admire because it would help all of his teammates.  Instead Bruce Allen took the position that the team straight up owns him because he's under contract with them, and should just shut up and do whatever they tell him.  

I also disagree with you repeatedly saying he slandered anyone.  Calling a terrible medical staff terrible is not slander.  In order to perform slander the statement has to be both false and hurt someone's reputation.  Neither were done by Trent because his statement was true and their reputation already sucked.  

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[turtle28]

Totally agree with Lavar & MKnight here on the releasing of medical records to someone especially when he doesn’t trust the team or the league. That’s a hell no from me.

He doesn’t want anything to do with the Redskins, this marriage needed to end last summer and the fact that this issues is still a thing again points to the poor job that Bruce is doing running the team.

The things I can’t understand are:

1. Why Trent didn’t get a second opinion if he was concerned about the growth. Doctors can be wrong, they’re human, even the best once’s can be wrong.

2. How he still has love for Dan Snyder. He continuously states how he loves Dan and doesn’t blame Dan but his problem is with Bruce. Well, Dan hired Bruce who then - along with Shanahan - drafted Trent in 2010. It was one of the the first major moves that Mike & Bruce made in 2010.

Dan has kept Bruce employed since then, even through all the obvious screw ups - whether that be PR or bad roster decisions  - it’s ultimately Dan’s fault that this issue wasn’t nipped in the bud months ago. Dan is allowing Bruce to do everything including handle everything with Trent’s situation in DC. Dan could have ended this but telling Bruce to just trade Trent so we can move on as a franchise but Dan approves of Bruce and wants Trent to retire as a Redskin so, Dan let this situation get to where it is today.

The buck stops with Dan, NOT Brice. 

[turtle28]

3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yes! This is something that will push Dan to fire Brice!

[turtle28]

6 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Hilarious and sad at the same time. Sad but True I guess I would say!

[Thaiphoon]

1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

Because he gains nothing from doing that.  He would be blackballed by the NFL Kaepernick style for suing his team.  He'd get what, a few million dollars?  If he just shuts up and gets traded in the offseason he'll likely get a $60 mil contract extension.   

Who said anything about him suing the team? I was answering your question about releasing the records. Which he should do. And which I would also do (conditional release of the records around this issue).

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The NFL trade deadline was Oct 29th, which is less than 2 months ago.  Trent Williams made no public statements until the trade deadline, so you are wildly exaggerating the time period here.  In fact I think he's had maybe 3 press statement since then, one of which was this week in which he just slammed Bruce Allen the whole time.  

And yet he drip, drip, dripped the information through surrogates all through the offseason. I'm not exaggerating the time period here. We knew all offseason. Why is it that we knew the genesis of this was the cancer scare before the trade deadline? Because Trent leaked it through surrogates. And then his statements since then back up what they said, including adding the "6 years" thing about the diagnosis.

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This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.  You're obviously taking this personally for some reason and are not looking at this rationally.

It's rational to want to know why one of our best players held out the whole season. I want to know who the bad actors are here (Trent? Bruce? The medical staff?) so it doesn't happen again. Trent can put this all to rest with a conditional release of the records  (for a review by the NFLPA, NFL and an unbiased 3rd party) pertaining to the initial complaint, the time period, any follow up complaints, the visit to the outside doctors, and the diagnosis and treatment. And all this doesn't have to expose anything else about his health. Just that part of the issue at hand. He refuses to let it come to the light of day even though in the light of day he continues to slam whomever he wants because he's the "victim".

So given that he won't agree to the review, the only other way we're going to know who is lying here is if he has to produce those records under subpoena in the discovery portion of a trial. 

I want to know who is lying. I want to know why one of our best players held out all year and refuses to play for the team. That's a rational position to take.

 

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Neither one is probably lying.  They didn't talk for the entire season, there's probably a lot of miscommunication going on.  

I don't buy this one bit. Trent has alleged that they misdiagnosed him for 6 years and inferred that it was their screwup in not telling him he should get a 2nd opinion that left him on death's door. The Redskins say they told him to get a 2nd opinion. Someone is lying. I want to know who.

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He's cashing in how?  He's taken multiple cash penalties from the Redskins for standing up for what he believes in. 

You're taking that literally. I'm using "cashing in" as a turn of phrase to say that he is getting all the goodwill sent his way ("cashing in") because he's the victim of the evil Redskins medical staff that didn't diagnose cancer and almost got him killed.

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He felt slighted and wanted a new 5 year contract with guaranteed money and since the team didn't draft a LT he thought he had them over a barrel and wanted the Redskins to show him some love with roll over and give him a contract extension. 

FTFY. IMHO - This was about money, plain and simple. He used the medical team not diagnosing the cancer as a convenient foil to try to extract a new contract out of the Redskins. When that didn't work, he was too far gone to back out of his position. 

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He also wanted the Redskins to replace a pretty poor medical team with a better one, something that should be admire because it would help all of his teammates. 

Yes, replace the ones that suck and find out why we keep being in the bottom of the league. I've been probably the most vocal about this for the longest time here on this forum.

But he didn't come to the team with allegations they screwed up a sports injury issue. He came to them with malpractice allegations concerning something the doctors could not possibly have diagnosed and then compounded it by alleging further medical ethical violations and allegations that the front office (and therefore the team) were complicit in it. 

Yeah, I have NO idea why the team would be mad at that. 

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Instead Bruce Allen took the position that the team straight up owns him because he's under contract with them, and should just shut up and do whatever they tell him.

  He signed a 5 year contract that was front loaded with guaranteed money. When they money ran out, he made up an excuse to extort a new deal out of them. This is a contract negotiation. He either shows up and plays or he sits and doesn't get paid. That is the team's position. 

Now, I've gone on record as saying I would've converted the last 2 years to guaranteed and then left it at that. I have gone on record as saying that we should've traded him. I'm not saying the front office made smart moves here. They clearly didn't. But it is not unreasonable for the team to hold firm and not give him a new contract once the guaranteed money ran out. Especially with his injury history, age, and declining play.

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I also disagree with you repeatedly saying he slandered anyone.  Calling a terrible medical staff terrible is not slander.  In order to perform slander the statement has to be both false and hurt someone's reputation.  Neither were done by Trent because his statement was true and their reputation already sucked.

Nope You can disagree with me all you want. We just disagree.

To be slander, it must be something that is false (or I have reason to believe is false) and cause damage to the reputation. We agree here.

However, there's a difference here in what he did.

I can call them a terrible team of sports doctors for the rash of injuries the team has undergone and the missed sports injury diagnoses that they have had. That is not a false statement. And they cannot come after me for that.

BUT...

If I say that this team of sports doctors misdiagnosed me for 6 years for sarcoma and they told me not to worry about it and did not tell me to get a 2nd opinion even as it persisted, then it is either slander or it's not.

Because if true, then the doctors are guilty of general medical malpractice and a slew of ethical violations for not seeing it persist and telling the patient that it's no longer a sports-related issue and should get checked out. And those doctors should/will lose their licenses.

If false (which I believe it is), then it is absolutely slander. Because he has hurled an allegation that he a) knows to be false and b) will cause damage to those doctors' reputations as a result. 

Given that I know a ton of doctors, even sports doctors are not going to tell a guy to ignore the growth on his head as it gets bigger and nastier and he keeps complaining about it. So yeah, right now, I'm in the camp that he's lying his tail off about this. And since he is, it's slander IMHO. 

You can disagree all you want on that. You can accept his version of events simply because you don't like Bruce Allen or this medical staff. That's fine. I don't like them either. But I'm looking at this with open eyes here and not letting my hatred of either one of them cloud my vision here on this issue.

To me it's simple.

1. A player has invented a reason (*) why he is holding out.
2. And oh BTW he also wants more money *wink wink*.
3. He holds out all season and comes back to try to get one year taken off his deal while still proclaiming he has no intention of playing for the team.
4. The team has asked for a review of their actions (the newest reason the player has stated - now on reason #2)
5. The player doesn't want a review of the team's actions 

Throw out the parties involved here. Ignore the PII (personally identifiable information). Leave Trent's name out of this. Leave Bruce's name out of this. Leave the front office out of this. Put this on a different team. And then understand that this is how I'm looking at this. I want to know the truth of what happened. Will I/We get it? Dunno. But I'd like to see it. And there's only one way that it gets revealed short of a discovery motion in court. And the guy who made the allegations and held out all season is the one that is stopping it from getting scrutinized in the light of day. If he was truly victimized, he has no reason to fear a limited release of the records pertaining only to this issue. The fact that he is blocking it, gives up the game for him IMHO.

  (*) note: I didn't say he made up the cancer - just that the staff was responsible for it not getting treated for 6 years. I'm going to ignore responses putting words in my mouth that I said he made up the fact that he had cancer

[Thaiphoon]

1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

Yes! This is something that will push Dan to fire Brice!

I can only hope so. No HC of any quality is going to want to come here with Bruce still in the building

[MKnight82]

@Thaiphoon I'm not going to go quote to quote again here.  We just don't see eye to eye on this.  Its whatever.  

[offbyone]

3 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

Because he gains nothing from doing that.  He would be blackballed by the NFL Kaepernick style for suing his team.  He'd get what, a few million dollars?  If he just shuts up and gets traded in the offseason he'll likely get a $60 mil contract extension. 

I am not sure what suing the team has to do with not releasing the medical records.  If we want to talk about leaks, we can also point to him leaking his feelings about the team, trashing the medical staff all through backdoor proxies for months on end.  If anyone is at risk for being sued it is trent williams himself by the medical staff for slandering them.

But if Trent really has privacy concerns or whatever, then fine move on.  But the highlighted is the point.  He isn't moving on.  He won't stop talking about it.  And what has he gained by continuing to berate the team publicly?  You may agree with him or be on his side but it is just foolish and contradictory for him to sit there on his high horse, refusing to allow a private investigation while he publicly attacks people.

If I am another GM, I am taking note.  If you piss off Trent Williams, not only will he walk out on his contract, he will publicly bash the team and personally attack members of the organization.  Not to mention he will publicly trash your other employees like the medical staff if he doesn't feel they took care of him properly.  Is that risk worth signing an often injured, aging player to a giant contract?   hmmm.  He is only doing himself a disservice.  But I guess we can still cheer him on for making such a public stink of trashing bruce allen, something we all enjoy to a degree

 

[MKnight82]

1 minute ago, offbyone said:

I am not sure what suing the team has to do with not releasing the medical records.

He would only release his medical records in an effort by the NFLPA attempt to fight his fines he's received from the team, or to remove a year from his contract so he's a FA sooner.  Perhaps "sue" is not the right term but its effectively the same thing.  

[offbyone]

Just now, MKnight82 said:

He would only release his medical records in an effort by the NFLPA attempt to fight his fines he's received from the team, or to remove a year from his contract so he's a FA sooner.  Perhaps "sue" is not the right term but its effectively the same thing.  

Got it.