Report: Giants players are getting frustrated with Eli Manning's performance

[Art_Vandalay]

16 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

That Browns/Joe Thomas analogy I don't agree with at all. They absolutely made the right pick with Joe Thomas. The pick of Joe Thomas didn't fail them, every other pick they missed on failed them. It takes a lot to build a good team; you don't look at the great players you took and regret not picking a better or a more impactful player.

I think the point is a franchise QB > an all-time great at another position. Take JJ Watt as another example. He might go down as the greatest defensive player to ever live but he has yet to play in a conference championship game.

If the Giants find a franchise QB in the next couple of years, it'll make the Saquon pick okay. If they begin a process of cycling through journeymen / low-tier rookie QB's and you have Darnold, Allen, and Rosen turning into franchise QB's, it will go down as a bad pick.

[lancerman]

7 minutes ago, ET80 said:

So, was last draft the ONLY draft to get a franchise QB?

I said it before, will say it again - I'll take Saquan/Justin Herbert over Darnold/Bryce Love every time (and I'm actually a fan of both Darnold AND Love).

Next year, whichever QB the Giants land is going to start day one and have the luxury of giving the ball to Saquan 25+ times a game. That's going to make that learning curve much easier.

Giants FO know where they are as a franchise - pretty far away from competing. Might as well build that offensive foundation around a very dynamic superback such as Barkley.

I don’t think you guys realize how hard it is to draft franchise QB’s. It’s a crap shoot. The Colts decided they didn’t want to even take a chance that one of the greatest ever at the position would return to form as opposed to getting an automatic starter and as close to a sure thing as you can get. It was foolish to not take one in a draft as rich as last year. They are already in the Red because Eli sucked last year and they completely wasted this season rolling with him.

[ET80]

5 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I don’t think you guys realize how hard it is to draft franchise QB’s. It’s a crap shoot. The Colts decided they didn’t want to even take a chance that one of the greatest ever at the position would return to form as opposed to getting an automatic starter and as close to a sure thing as you can get. It was foolish to not take one in a draft as rich as last year. They are already in the Red because Eli sucked last year and they completely wasted this season rolling with him.

That goes with this class too - Rosen and Allen don't look special, Darnold has been inconsistent - so why burn capital on them with this Giants offense? I get it we like to hype this class up as some rare class, but do the results point to that?

As you said - it's a crap shoot, even with three blue chip guys available at 2.

A rookie QB on this offense basically ensures a bust. So, pick up the best player in the draft and use him as a crutch for the actual QBOTF.

[minutemancl]

1 minute ago, Art_Vandalay said:

I think the point is a franchise QB > an all-time great at another position. Take JJ Watt as another example. He might go down as the greatest defensive player to ever live but he has yet to play in a conference championship game.

If the Giants find a franchise QB in the next couple of years, it'll make the Saquon pick okay. If they begin a process of cycling through journeymen / low-tier rookie QB's and you have Darnold, Allen, and Rosen turning into franchise QB's, it will go down as a bad pick.

I think my philosophy differs from a lot of people here and it why I disagree- I don't think the success of the Saquon pick hinges on other picks or other players. I think it hinges on Saquon and his performance and career, and to a decent extent, how that compares to guys taken after him in that draft. The Giants will eventually make moves to improve the QB position. If they draft a guy and he busts or they make signings or a trade and they fail to pan out, then those moves are bad moves. I don't think that should have any affect on the pick of Saquon. If Saquon goes on to be a HOFer, regardless of how anyone else pans out, it will be hard to call it a bad pick. If he ends up not playing well and Darnold or someone else turns out to be a perennial all-pro, then I would agree to calling it a bad pick. If Saquon goes on to have a fantastic career and Darnold does as well, I think it would still be wrong to call Saquon a bad pick.

Would anyone call JJ Watt a bad pick? Andy Dalton was taken about 20 picks after him, and he is a solid QB and 3x pro bowler. Does that make JJ Watt a bad pick, since the Texans have had QB problems for a long time, ever since JJ has been there?

[iknowcool]

14 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The Colts decided they didn’t want to even take a chance that one of the greatest ever at the position would return to form as opposed to getting an automatic starter and as close to a sure thing as you can get.

Andrew Luck /=/ Sam Darnold

[minutemancl]

17 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I don’t think you guys realize how hard it is to draft franchise QB’s. It’s a crap shoot. The Colts decided they didn’t want to even take a chance that one of the greatest ever at the position would return to form as opposed to getting an automatic starter and as close to a sure thing as you can get. It was foolish to not take one in a draft as rich as last year. They are already in the Red because Eli sucked last year and they completely wasted this season rolling with him.

We did take one in the 4th round. Eli sucks this year, but so do a lot of other parts of the team. That's what happens when you draft horribly for years. You're seeing the same thing with the Raiders, Cardinals, and Broncos. Broncos and Giants are very similar actually- both had what looks like great drafts this past year but years of bad drafting has gotten them in bad situations.

[Art_Vandalay]

6 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

If Saquon goes on to be a HOFer, regardless of how anyone else pans out, it will be hard to call it a bad pick

If Darnold has a great career and gets a ring while the Giants average around .500, it will absolutely be considered a bad pick since the majority of people were baffled that the Giants passed on him.

 

7 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

Would anyone call JJ Watt a bad pick? Andy Dalton was taken about 20 picks after him

Two things:

1) Andy Dalton wasn't considered the common sense top pick. Both the Browns and the Giants went against the grain with Baker and Saquon.
2) The idea of Andy Dalton being a franchise QB is debatable.

[ET80]

40 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

If the Giants find a franchise QB in the next couple of years, it'll make the Saquon pick okay. If they begin a process of cycling through journeymen / low-tier rookie QB's and you have Darnold, Allen, and Rosen turning into franchise QB's, it will go down as a bad pick.

This? 100% true. If Saquan is a guy they roll with and then you see a revolving door of Ryan Fitzpatrick, Sam Bradford, Case Keenum type QBs follow, then the pick will be a colossal failure.

If the Giants pick up a young QB to hold it down for several years (and that QB doesn't even have to be elite, could be a Jameis Winston or Ryan Tannehill clone) then you'll see this pick look better and better as the years go by. 

People looking at it within context of one season are looking at it wrong.

[minutemancl]

3 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

If Darnold has a great career and gets a ring while the Giants average around .500, it will absolutely be considered a bad pick since the majority of people were baffled that the Giants passed on him.

If the Giants hover around .500, it will be because the team isn't good. If that's because Saquon isn't good, fair enough. If Saquon balls out and the front office isn't able to build a good team around him, how does that make Saquon a bad pick? It's kind of funny how much we attribute team success to a QB. They are definitely the most impactful single position, but it takes a lot more than just a good QB to win a championship. 

I don't think the bolded is true at all. Saquon was the consensus best player in the draft and a lot of people had him going to the Giants.

[Art_Vandalay]

2 hours ago, minutemancl said:

I don't think the bolded is true at all. Saquon was the consensus best player in the draft and a lot of people had him going to the Giants.

I think those same people had Darnold going to the Browns. Either way, we won't know for about 10 years whether it was a smart pick or not. Saquon is a stud though. If they can find a QB, they'll be dangerous.

[minutemancl]

1 hour ago, Art_Vandalay said:

I think those same people had Darnold going to the Browns. Either way, we won't know for about 10 years whether it was a smart pick or not. Saquon is a stud though. If they can find a QB, they'll be dangerous.

To be fair, everyone had Darnold going to the Browns until 2 days before the draft when Hue was finally told they were taking Baker. It's all projection now, just like it was before the draft, but we have a good idea now how these guys will pan out. I think Baker looks the best so far. Josh Allen and Josh Rosen look bad, but the situations they are in are also really bad. Darnold is very up and down, but you can see what he offers. 6 weeks in and Barkley has got to be the front runner for ROTY. Of course, the transition is easier for a RB than a QB. Time will tell. Absolutely the Giants have to get a QB though. Not getting one would be a complete failure and a waste. If I'm the Giants, I'm seeing what I have in Lauletta later this season, acquiring Kyle Sloter in the offseason, and drafting Herbert or Daniel Jones with my first pick next year. Let those 3 guys battle it out. I'm cutting Eli this offseason if I'm the Giants. It would be over 10 million in savings with only 6.5 in dead money. If you have Herbert and he isn't ready for week 1, let Lauletta or Sloter play. I love Eli, but it is definitely time to move on.

[game3525]

5 hours ago, iknowcool said:

Andrew Luck /=/ Sam Darnold

Yeah, lancerman bringing up Indy in 2012 is a bad example. 

Luck was seen as a generational prospect. Darnold was never held in that regard. I am 100% sure the Giants would have taking a QB if there was a Luck ( or even RGIII) level prospect available to them at two. 

[riceman80]

6 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said:

If Darnold has a great career and gets a ring while the Giants average around .500, it will absolutely be considered a bad pick since the majority of people were baffled that the Giants passed on him.

Huh? If that happens, id say thats more on the ownership, front office, and coaching for failing to build a contender over his 10-15 year career.

How can you say that 1 first round pick in a 10-15 year period can be called a bad pick and the reason they never got a super bowl. In that time period, youre looking at likely multiple GMs, multiple coaching staffs, 100s of different players and around 100 draft picks. But one guy who was a 1st round pick will be ridiculed as a bad pick cuz the team didnt win a SB?

Thats like saying the Lions made a bad pick in Barry Sanders

[Art_Vandalay]

21 hours ago, riceman80 said:

Huh? If that happens, id say thats more on the ownership, front office, and coaching for failing to build a contender over his 10-15 year career.

How can you say that 1 first round pick in a 10-15 year period can be called a bad pick and the reason they never got a super bowl. In that time period, youre looking at likely multiple GMs, multiple coaching staffs, 100s of different players and around 100 draft picks. But one guy who was a 1st round pick will be ridiculed as a bad pick cuz the team didnt win a SB?

Thats like saying the Lions made a bad pick in Barry Sanders

You completely missed the point. If Darnold turns out great and gets some hardware, everyone will look back on the 2018 draft and say wtf were the he Giants thinking. That doesn't mean Saquon is a bad player. You have all the experts and analysts saying the same thing. Saquon is a beast but the Giants desperately needed a QB. A great RB means nothing if you don't have a QB.

Your point about Barry supports everything I'm saying too.

[Malik]

Sam Darnold doesn't even need to get hardware for it to hypothetically be a bad pick because he could be great and just have iffy team circumstances his career like Marino. Speaking of the 83 draft wouldn't that be a more apt hypothetical? The LA Rams had the second round pick and they got a ERIC DICKERSON over a Jim Kelly or a Marino.