When VJ gets fired

[AnAngryAmerican]

5 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

Filchock, Malavasi, Speedie................. just about any of 'em prior to Ralston can lay a legitimate claim to that title.

And Mac. 

[AKRNA]

39 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

And Mac. 

No doubt. 

[lomaxgrUK]

It's my personal preference, but I would rather go down the route of the Eagles, Rams and Bears by getting a Offensive guy as the HC who is basically a de facto OC, whilst getting a very experienced DC who basically runs the entire Defensive. The HC basically just becomes the ultimate decision maker when given a 50/50 decision.

Obviously personality matters; it does with any Head Coach. We've had both the immature authoritarian and the lame duck. But there really is nothing more important to a Football team than finding the right Offense in my opinion. 

Don't expect everyone to agree, but that's my take.

[lomaxgrUK]

And no, I really don't have any suggestions as I don't know the personality of available Coaches out there.

What I do know is that I don't want a 'rah rah' guy like Harbaugh, or a retread like McCarthy or Garrett.

[thebestever6]

I think John defilippo would be an excellent coach. I think he understands the game so well. Route concepts and everything.  

I don't think it's a coincidence the eagles regressed this year after losing him and Frank Reich. 

Elway has too not only interview canidates, he has to gauge people around the nfl. I'm sure Lynch would give some reccomendations. 

I called Mcvay as a good head coach. And thats because I did my research all his former players raved about him. And apparently he was the biggest reason for Washingtons 2012 success.

[Broncofan]

4 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

I think John defilippo would be an excellent coach. I think he understands the game so well. Route concepts and everything.  

I don't think it's a coincidence the eagles regressed this year after losing him and Frank Reich. 

Elway has too not only interview canidates, he has to gauge people around the nfl. I'm sure Lynch would give some reccomendations. 

I called Mcvay as a good head coach. And thats because I did my research all his former players raved about him. And apparently he was the biggest reason for Washingtons 2012 success.

The only thing is that Defilippo is likely to be in huge demand.  And he's likely going to want to choose his QBOTF.   Will Elway allow that? 

I know he will spar a lot of debate on the 1-year OC issue, given that his only other time he was OC, well, it didn't go so well - CLE 2015 (not that it ever goes well there, since, well ever - although now they have hope).   I do like that he got to spend 2 years with Pederson - and hopefully incorporated the Andy Reid principles that Pederson uses faithfully...until game time, and Pederson upgrades on Reid's get-too-cute/awful clock management & game adjustment weaknesses 10x.   His 2016-17 time with PHI and 2018 success with MIN's O, even though their OL is a complete disaster, and they've missed Dalvin Cook for pretty much 5 of their 9 games, is pretty solid work.    But he's also so popular, and he's going to want heavy input on the QBOTF.  I don't know that he's a fit in DEN if Elway isn't willing to cede more control, regardless of how you feel about him as being ready for success as a HC.

 

[Broncofan]

5 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

It's my personal preference, but I would rather go down the route of the Eagles, Rams and Bears by getting a Offensive guy as the HC who is basically a de facto OC, whilst getting a very experienced DC who basically runs the entire Defensive. The HC basically just becomes the ultimate decision maker when given a 50/50 decision.

Obviously personality matters; it does with any Head Coach. We've had both the immature authoritarian and the lame duck. But there really is nothing more important to a Football team than finding the right Offense in my opinion. 

Don't expect everyone to agree, but that's my take.

As with most debates, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.   I think the problem with Vance besides his lack of skills as a HC, was that hiring him and having Lynch/Siemian at QB, made us a very unattractive spot for an O-minded HC to want to come to, especially knowing that Elway's final say would supersede their vision of how to build an O.   It really became an Elway puppet signing, and that compounded itself into thinking we're a win-now team in 2018...thus the Keenum signing.   Musgrave was the best OC we could get, and I actually liked what he's done with what he's had to work with - but it's also clear he's still operating on an old-school mindset that doesn't fit well. 

The HOU game was a great example - we didn't have Freeman, so we just went run, run, pass early in 1Q - with Lindsay.   And ran inside.   Lindsay's capable of that, but that's not the right time or right way to use him (have him run inside in the RZ, or on key downs, maximize the return).   But that was clearly drawn up to protect the OL and Keenum from HOU's pass rush, and it worked to the degree they limited the sacks/TO's - but they also limited our output by being very unimaginative in the scheme/play calling itself.    Now, if we had a better QB, no doubt maybe we open things up more.  And better pass pro. Elway & VJ's line that they didn't try to get more yards once they got to the 35 because they feared a sack, strip-sack or penalty/TO, is telling - it's coaching not to lose...but it's also a reflection of how bad our QB/pass pro are.  It's just that our scheme also compounds that problem even more.

I do agree we need to have a totally new approach to QB evaluation, and frankly, our O philosophy.   We have the tools to make a more progressive O work - Lindsay would ball out in that kind of uptempo O, with more spread concepts.   Freeman could be the needed hammer.   Sanders can adapt to any system, and Sutton is used to a spread attack, Hamilton's a slot guy no matter what system you use.   Of course, you need the right trigger man and we need to have much better pass pro - you can't win with awful QB & trench play.   But that doesn't preclude a more aggressive, modern O.    But to do that, you need a HC who has more control than what VJ was given personnel-wise.   Now, it shouldn't be Josh McD-style, either - that's the part about the extremes.   Elway's still a great GM to keep - if we don't cede all control to him, he's got to allow more outside influence and control on how our O will run, and who our QBOTF will be.   Will he?  That's the 64K question this offseason.

 

[champ11]

The funny thing is, based on Elway's evaluation and hiring process, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he brought in McCarthy lmao. God that would be a nightmare. This is a rebuild, I think you need a true talent to grow with. I was hoping that was Vance and NOPE. 

[BroncoBruin]

As far as offensive philosophy goes, the way offensive line play in pass protection is trending, traditional NFL offenses are pretty hard to run. An RPO-heavy spread offense would be a nice way to alleviate some of those pass pro issues while not allowing teams to stack the box, and we should have the personnel to run the ball well even without Leary . The skill position talent is more than adequate for a bright offensive mind to work with. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

Here’s the thing for all the fans who want us to go the “hot coordinator” route again to consider - the HC’s primary job is to be a overall leader of the team, to coach the coaches, to provide direction, stability and accountability. Xs and Os are more the purview or the coordinators and, to a lesser extent, the position coaches. 

That is not to say that HCs don’t have varying degrees of input on even minute parts, Kyle runs the offense in San Fran, BB is very involved with the defense in New England, Andy Reid works very closely with Maholmes and the offense in KC (and did the same in Philly with McNabb) but the HC’s #1 job is not the minutea, his job is far more strategic than it is operational and tactical. That’s why a CEO HC like John Harbaugh should be our top choice. If Ellis is willing to put up the money (and he should be because if we keep losing he’s going to get sued by the Bowlen children and firing him will be their first order of business) we can hire and attract top-notch coordinators to install modern and possibly even revolutinairy schemes. 

But you can’t have a hack or untested “my way or the highway” kid at the top; we’ve tried that twice in the last decade, both times with disastrous results. 

[jsthomp2007]

14 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Here’s the thing for all the fans who want us to go the “hot coordinator” route again to consider - the HC’s primary job is to be a overall leader of the team, to coach the coaches, to provide direction, stability and accountability. Xs and Os are more the purview or the coordinators and, to a lesser extent, the position coaches. 

That is not to say that HCs don’t have varying degrees of input on even minute parts, Kyle runs the offense in San Fran, BB is very involved with the defense in New England, Andy Reid works very closely with Maholmes and the offense in KC (and did the same in Philly with McNabb) but the HC’s #1 job is not the minutea, his job is far more strategic than it is operational and tactical. That’s why a CEO HC like John Harbaugh should be our top choice. If Ellis is willing to put up the money (and he should be because if we keep losing he’s going to get sued by the Bowlen children and firing him will be their first order of business) we can hire and attract top-notch coordinators to install modern and possibly even revolutinairy schemes. 

But you can’t have a hack or untested “my way or the highway” kid at the top; we’ve tried that twice in the last decade, both times with disastrous results. 

So, why then couldn't someone like DeMarcus Ware be the HC?  Who wouldn't play for that guy?  Seriously?  He completely transformed Von. 

[lomaxgrUK]

15 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Here’s the thing for all the fans who want us to go the “hot coordinator” route again to consider - the HC’s primary job is to be a overall leader of the team, to coach the coaches, to provide direction, stability and accountability. Xs and Os are more the purview or the coordinators and, to a lesser extent, the position coaches. 

That is not to say that HCs don’t have varying degrees of input on even minute parts, Kyle runs the offense in San Fran, BB is very involved with the defense in New England, Andy Reid works very closely with Maholmes and the offense in KC (and did the same in Philly with McNabb) but the HC’s #1 job is not the minutea, his job is far more strategic than it is operational and tactical. That’s why a CEO HC like John Harbaugh should be our top choice. If Ellis is willing to put up the money (and he should be because if we keep losing he’s going to get sued by the Bowlen children and firing him will be their first order of business) we can hire and attract top-notch coordinators to install modern and possibly even revolutinairy schemes. 

But you can’t have a hack or untested “my way or the highway” kid at the top; we’ve tried that twice in the last decade, both times with disastrous results. 

I don't agree with this take. I think that's a traditionalist view. 

Sean Payton, Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, Matt Nagy and Andy Reid don't just have a hand in the Offense - they run the entire unit, including the calling of plays. They are, for all intents and purposes, Offensive Coordinators. What they do is layout the direction of the team to their Coaches, and entrust them to Coach their units. 

Just look at the Defensive Coordinators on all of the teams I have mentioned and their NFL experience - Wade Phillips, Bob Sutton, Dennis Allen and Vic Fangio are all  very experienced Defensive Coordinators. There's only Saleh in San Francisco who is inexperienced, and well, that unit stinks. Do they need to be Coached at this point? No. If how they Coach doesn't fit, why hire them? 

I think it's archaic to expect a Head Coach to be leading all facets of the game. It's not feasible for a Head Coach to have a all seeing stake in all units. Teams like the ones I have mentioned have moved towards entrusting Coaches with their units, whilst overseeing from a high level but focusing most of their efforts on the unit that they know best.

How on earth would you gauge a Head Coaches ability to do the job if it was on the criteria you've set out? You're basically just guessing. It's far, far, far from a full proof plan, but if you go with the same mantra as teams like the Bears, you know what Offensive scheme you're getting and you know that your Defense and Special Teams are going to be Coached the exact way your Coordinators want (this wasn't the case with McDaniels' Dictatorship).

I am just over the NFL's obsession with rah rah Coaches like Harbaugh. 
 

[The Helicopter]

Watch us bring in a new HC, QB, and then the ownership gets blown up (Ellis/Elway) and we start over yet again.

VJ is a loser and needs to go. We could all put a name on the wall, throw a dart, and have better success.

[jsthomp2007]

1 hour ago, The Helicopter said:

Watch us bring in a new HC, QB, and then the ownership gets blown up (Ellis/Elway) and we start over yet again.

VJ is a loser and needs to go. We could all put a name on the wall, throw a dart, and have better success.

Oh man...that remind me of a squash and an iguana. 

[The Helicopter]

3 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said:

Oh man...that remind me of a squash and an iguana. 

Do tell!