World Series: Los Angeles Dodgers vs Boston Red Sox

[dhunt2402]

1 hour ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

And to think everyone was laughing at Dombrowski for emptying the farm. The Sale deal was one of those once in a generation opportunities and he killed it.

Sale was maybe the 15th most important player during this playoff run too. It was all his other moves that put this team over the top.

On a related note, I think next year could be Sale's last in Boston.

[ramssuperbowl99]

17 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

ehh Dombrowski deserves more credit for this world series than Cherington.

Cherington acquired:

Matt Barnes (draft)
Andrew Benintendi (draft)
Mookie Betts (draft)
Jackie Bradley (draft)
Joe Kelly (trade)
Rock Porcello (trade)
Eduardo Rodriguez (trade)
Rafael Devers (trade)
Manny Margot (IFA, Dombrowski traded him for Kimbrel)
Michael Kopech (draft), Yoan Moncada (IFA), and Luis Alexander Basabe (IFA) - Dombrowski traded them for Sale

Dombrowski cashed in the wealth of prospects that Cherington left him for Kimbrel and Sale. He added Kinsler, Steve Pearce, Mitch Moreland, JD Martinez, and David Price through free agency. But Cherington left Dombrowski an excellent young core of players, a ton of payroll space, and one of the best farm systems in the game.

I'm not saying who the better GM is or anything like that. But the 2018 Red Sox were engineered by Cherington's rebuild. Dombrowksi just had to spend what he inherited.

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

And to think everyone was laughing at Dombrowski for emptying the farm. The Sale deal was one of those once in a generation opportunities and he killed it.

By enlarge, he's traded the right prospects away in his career. That's a nice skill to have. I'm not knocking Dombrowski, but you hand a team over with upwards of $100M payroll room, a top 3 farm system, and a young core with the AL MVP and like 4 other all star guys...yeah that team should be a 100+ win juggernaut. 

I'd say the same thing if the Yankees fired Cashman today and then hired Cherington (obvious hypothetical that would never happen just to say this isn't a Cherington vs. Dombrowski thing for me).

[hrubes20]

8 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Cherington acquired:

Matt Barnes (draft)
Andrew Benintendi (draft)
Mookie Betts (draft)
Jackie Bradley (draft)
Joe Kelly (trade)
Rock Porcello (trade)
Eduardo Rodriguez (trade)
Rafael Devers (trade)
Manny Margot (IFA, Dombrowski traded him for Kimbrel)
Michael Kopech (draft), Yoan Moncada (IFA), and Luis Alexander Basabe (IFA) - Dombrowski traded them for Sale

Dombrowski cashed in the wealth of prospects that Cherington left him for Kimbrel and Sale. He added Kinsler, Steve Pearce, Mitch Moreland, JD Martinez, and David Price through free agency. But Cherington left Dombrowski an excellent young core of players, a ton of payroll space, and one of the best farm systems in the game.

I'm not saying who the better GM is or anything like that. But the 2018 Red Sox were engineered by Cherington's rebuild. Dombrowksi just had to spend what he inherited.

The bolded were drafted by Theo in his final draft in Boston.  Cherington was part of the braintrust that year for sure, but he gets far less credit for those 3.

Also a fun side note; Devers would have been in the Cubs organization if his agent thought the Cubs were telling the truth about blowing past the IFA limits when they were the first to do so.  His agent knew that the Cubs had offered big contracts to Jiminez, Torres, etc., and figured there was no way they were being honest with their offer for Devers.  So Devers took the lower offer from the Red Sox and the rest is history.  

[1ForTheThumb]

2 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Ben Cherington has to feel really weird right now. He built most of that team, tbh.

No doubt he had a large hand in it, but I'm pretty confident Chris Sale, Craig Kimbrel, Nathan Eovaldi, etc. wouldn't be Red Sox today under Cherington's management. He is pretty much the polar opposite of Dombrowsk, he is a prospect hoarder.

I imagine posters here would love him.

[redsoxsuck05]

12 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

By enlarge, he's traded the right prospects away in his career. That's a nice skill to have. I'm not knocking Dombrowski, but you hand a team over with upwards of $100M payroll room, a top 3 farm system, and a young core with the AL MVP and like 4 other all star guys...yeah that team should be a 100+ win juggernaut. 

I'd say the same thing if the Yankees fired Cashman today and then hired Cherington (obvious hypothetical that would never happen just to say this isn't a Cherington vs. Dombrowski thing for me).

I’m js for the posters here who treat farm system rankings like they’re the be-all-end-all. As obvious as the Sale deal was in hindsight, most GMs would be too terrified to part with Moncada.

And yea, the DD hire was ridiculed here as if he gives away prospects for nothing.

[1ForTheThumb]

17 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Cherington acquired:

Matt Barnes (draft)
Andrew Benintendi (draft)
Mookie Betts (draft)
Jackie Bradley (draft)
Joe Kelly (trade)
Rock Porcello (trade)
Eduardo Rodriguez (trade)
Rafael Devers (trade)
Manny Margot (IFA, Dombrowski traded him for Kimbrel)
Michael Kopech (draft), Yoan Moncada (IFA), and Luis Alexander Basabe (IFA) - Dombrowski traded them for Sale

Dombrowski cashed in the wealth of prospects that Cherington left him for Kimbrel and Sale. He added Kinsler, Steve Pearce, Mitch Moreland, JD Martinez, and David Price through free agency. But Cherington left Dombrowski an excellent young core of players, a ton of payroll space, and one of the best farm systems in the game.

I'm not saying who the better GM is or anything like that. But the 2018 Red Sox were engineered by Cherington's rebuild. Dombrowksi just had to spend what he inherited.

Should have read your additional posts before my initial response- but I agree, there's no doubt Cherington had a huge hand in this Red Sox team. Theo, as well.

Cherington absolutely CRUSHED that 2011 Draft. Barnes, JBJ, Mookie, Swihart.

[Fresh Prince]

Odds that price ops out?

[Apparition]

9 minutes ago, Fresh Prince said:

Odds that price ops out?

I don't think he does, but it has to have crept back into his mind over the past 12 hours. Maybe he thinks he can make the same money elsewhere and not have to deal with the Boston media. We'll see.

[hrubes20]

21 minutes ago, 1ForTheThumb said:

Should have read your additional posts before my initial response- but I agree, there's no doubt Cherington had a huge hand in this Red Sox team. Theo, as well.

Cherington absolutely CRUSHED that 2011 Draft. Barnes, JBJ, Mookie, Swihart.

Again, this was mostly Theo.  He also took Travis Shaw in the 9th round in that draft, who is a solid player now in Milwaukee.

[ramssuperbowl99]

7 minutes ago, hrubes20 said:

The bolded were drafted by Theo in his final draft in Boston.  Cherington was part of the braintrust that year for sure, but he gets far less credit for those 3.

Also a fun side note; Devers would have been in the Cubs organization if his agent thought the Cubs were telling the truth about blowing past the IFA limits when they were the first to do so.  His agent knew that the Cubs had offered big contracts to Jiminez, Torres, etc., and figured there was no way they were being honest with their offer for Devers.  So Devers took the lower offer from the Red Sox and the rest is history.  

Ahh fair enough. Yeah Theo deserves credit for this WS too. He got Xander signed as well as a few other guys random guys. And in addition to Devers, Theo had Carlos Martinez back in like 2008, then Martinez was found to be lying about his age and the Cardinals got him after he had blown up as a prospect.

18 minutes ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

I’m js for the posters here who treat farm system rankings like they’re the be-all-end-all. As obvious as the Sale deal was in hindsight, most GMs would be too terrified to part with Moncada.

And yea, the DD hire was ridiculed here as if he gives away prospects for nothing.

You're arguing a strawman. No one says DD gives prospects away for nothing or treats farm system rankings like the be-all-end-all. 5 years ago, when prospects weren't as valued as they are now, yeah this forum was generally pro-prospect on prospect-for-player trades. The market has shifted, and I think it's more neutral now.

My personal take on DD used to be that he'll help you win now, and burn your farm system to the ground by trading everybody. Now, it's that he'll help you win now, and burn your farm system to the ground, but he's got a pretty good track record of trading away the right guys.

I ridiculed the hire, and was pro-Cherington at the time. Was I really that wrong? My take was that Cherington had done a good job (this is mostly true), he'd have built a monster with the Red Sox eventually (this is also mostly true), and that hiring DD is a short term win (true) but long term loss (in this case based on who he's traded away, not so much). Big market MLB teams have moved away from the "win 95 games a year" type operating goals, and moved towards "rebuild, then win 105 games for 2-3 years, then start over" strategy. Cherington is good at the start over part and gets you to 95 wins. If you think that's the goal, going from Cherington to DD isn't a good idea. Obviously, the Red Sox wanted to condense their window, and flags fly forever, so they were right.

But there's a lot more nuance here than you're giving people who didn't like the DD hire credit for.

[DoleINGout]

48 minutes ago, 1ForTheThumb said:

Should have read your additional posts before my initial response- but I agree, there's no doubt Cherington had a huge hand in this Red Sox team. Theo, as well.

Cherington absolutely CRUSHED that 2011 Draft. Barnes, JBJ, Mookie, Swihart.

They each deserve credit obviously for the reasons stated, but this world series was possible because of what Dombrowski did in my opinion.

[DoleINGout]

50 minutes ago, Fresh Prince said:

Odds that price ops out?

40/60. In regular season I'd have guessed he might opt out due to the pressure and disappointment. Now I think he is motivated to put together a Cy Young caliber regular season and win the MVP next world series since he got jipped this year. Price loves his teammates apparently and they seem to support him so I think he will likely stay now. Plus the money Price gets opting in is huge. Probably can't get as much anywhere else.

[MookieMonstah]

2 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Cherington acquired:

Matt Barnes (draft)
Andrew Benintendi (draft)
Mookie Betts (draft)
Jackie Bradley (draft)
Joe Kelly (trade)
Rock Porcello (trade)
Eduardo Rodriguez (trade)
Rafael Devers (trade)
Manny Margot (IFA, Dombrowski traded him for Kimbrel)
Michael Kopech (draft), Yoan Moncada (IFA), and Luis Alexander Basabe (IFA) - Dombrowski traded them for Sale

Dombrowski cashed in the wealth of prospects that Cherington left him for Kimbrel and Sale. He added Kinsler, Steve Pearce, Mitch Moreland, JD Martinez, and David Price through free agency. But Cherington left Dombrowski an excellent young core of players, a ton of payroll space, and one of the best farm systems in the game.

I'm not saying who the better GM is or anything like that. But the 2018 Red Sox were engineered by Cherington's rebuild. Dombrowksi just had to spend what he inherited.

Both GMs had a huge impact but Dombrowski was the guy who finished it off. Price, Sale, JD, Pearce, Eovaldi, Moreland, Braiser were all absolutely huge in the post season. 

I said it when detractors were trying to bash Dombrowski because he just goes everywhere and dismantles the farm systems, the dude ALWAYS wins deals. 95% of the trades hes done, go back and look at where those "top prospects" are now. The dude is an incredible judge of talent. 

[MookieMonstah]

2 hours ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

I’m js for the posters here who treat farm system rankings like they’re the be-all-end-all. As obvious as the Sale deal was in hindsight, most GMs would be too terrified to part with Moncada.

And yea, the DD hire was ridiculed here as if he gives away prospects for nothing.

100%. People were absolutely roasting DD because he trades a ton of prospects, yet a huge percentage of the prospects he trade amount to nothing and he brings in elite talent.