Ragnarok Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 If Sterling Sharpe isn't in the HOF with a shortened career, almost no one should be. Sayers and TD are extreme exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 4 hours ago, stl4life07 said: I wasnt trying to put nobody down. Doesn’t really matter if you were trying or not. Starting a post with “this is my opinion, and anyone who disagrees doesn’t know football” is pretty much an across-the-board awful way to start any conversation. Quote What he is doing from the defensive tackle position, NOBODY SHOULD BE DOING....This is a guy who teams had years to figure him out. They KNOW he is coming and still cant do anything about it. He has the stats to back it up. Right now he is on pace for a little over 18 sacks from the defensive tackle position. You have to go back to 2000 to find the last time a defensive tackle had that many. Watt and Donald play similar positions along the interior line, especially now that he’s in Wade’s defense. Quote He is durable, so as much I like Watt and think if Watt can stay healthy he eventually will be a HOF'er as well, Donald is more dependable because he is on the field every game day. Out of everything - this has to be the most hypocritical. How is Watt an eventual HOFer if he stays healthy, but Donald is one right now? Watt had a historic stretch that Donald hasn’t had yet. Donald’s in his 5th year - by the end of Watt’s 5th year he had 3 DPOYs. Even if you think Donald is playing to the level Watt did early in his career, then they’ve proved the same. There really isn’t anymore of a perfect example of homerism than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Donald is on a HOF pace, but is not a HOFer if he retires today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikesfan89 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 2 hours ago, stl4life07 said: I wasnt trying to put nobody down. I was just saying that in a society that is quick to say Mahomes or Jimmy G is great after less than a season worth of starts is hesitant to say Donald is a HOF'er after 4yrs of dominance. I just said it in short. And look I like Mahomes and I think Jimmy G has the chance to be great too. But Im not going to say that they are great only after 10 starts or less. Heck I didnt even do that with Donald right away. I thought Donald was really good but I still was higher on Quinn at the time. It wasnt till Quinn got hurt and missed time and Donald had the spotlight to himself where I saw him dominate that I was like wow this guy is better than I thought. What he is doing from the defensive tackle position, NOBODY SHOULD BE DOING. For him to have a career year last year which was historic to now on pace to have an even better year is mind-blowing. This isnt a 1yr year guy who is having an amazing start to his career where teams havent had time to really figure him out. This is a guy who teams had years to figure him out. They KNOW he is coming and still cant do anything about it. He has the stats to back it up. Right now he is on pace for a little over 18 sacks from the defensive tackle position. You have to go back to 2000 to find the last time a defensive tackle had that many. La'Rio Glover had 17. 1997 John Randle had 15.5. 1988 Reggie White 18. 1987 Reggie White had 21. But its not just about sacks, its about pressures and tackles for loss. Tackles for loss is just like a sack because its a negative play. Pressures are just as effective as a sack because it makes the QB make bad decisions because they are in a hurry. Donald has been historically one of if not the best at that in a very long time at the position. He is durable, so as much I like Watt and think if Watt can stay healthy he eventually will be a HOF'er as well, Donald is more dependable because he is on the field every game day. But again I didnt mean to put nobody down when I said if others dont believe he is then they dont know football. I am just saying the way society is quick to crown someone who isnt worthy, why not crown someone who has the body work compared to those that people are crowning right now as the greatest. There is a difference between saying someone is a great player and saying they've had a hall of fame career already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl4life07 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 16 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Doesn’t really matter if you were trying or not. Starting a post with “this is my opinion, and anyone who disagrees doesn’t know football” is pretty much an across-the-board awful way to start any conversation. Watt and Donald play similar positions along the interior line, especially now that he’s in Wade’s defense. Out of everything - this has to be the most hypocritical. How is Watt and eventual HOFer if he stays healthy, but Donald is one right now? Watt had a historic stretch that Donald hasn’t had yet. Donald’s in his 5th year - by the end of Watt’s 5th year he had 3 DPOYs. Even if you think Donald is playing to the level Watt did early in his career, then they’ve proved the same. There really isn’t anymore of a perfect example of homerism than this. I’m not being hypocritical. Watt has fallen off a bit due to injuries. I stated in my original post about politics. Watt will be a HOF’er but if he retires today most people will say he was great “when he played”. He started to get hurt and missed a lot of games in recent memory. With Donald he was always available and dominated. I know everyone isn’t going to agree with me so I’ll be the lone wolf on this but again Donald has been great from game number one till last week against the Niners. He has only gotten better which is scary because he was already insanely good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl4life07 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said: There is a difference between saying someone is a great player and saying they've had a hall of fame career already I disagree. Saying someone is great after 7 starts like people was claiming Jimmy G was before the start of this season is insane. Saying Donald is a HOF’er after 4yrs and he actually has the resume that’s either on par or better than already HOF’er through their first 4yrs isn’t. I think what people are failing to look at is if you took these 4yrs and again let’s say Donald is ok to good the rest of his career, like he gets in because of how dominant he is in this 4yr stretch. Like it’s silly though because how long does he need to keep this up? 5? 6? 7? Barring some type of catastrophic injury by Donald it’s envitable he gets into the HOF and NOBODY should be like “it took him till year 6 of his career to lock it up”. People frame of mind just says even though Donald greatness is beyond measure 4yrs seems to short when in reality it’s not. We will never know because Donald isn’t retiring today but he has the HOF already cemented, he is just adding to his great legacy he will eventually leave behind when he does call it a career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikesfan89 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 13 minutes ago, stl4life07 said: I disagree. Saying someone is great after 7 starts like people was claiming Jimmy G was before the start of this season is insane. Saying Donald is a HOF’er after 4yrs and he actually has the resume that’s either on par or better than already HOF’er through their first 4yrs isn’t. I think what people are failing to look at is if you took these 4yrs and again let’s say Donald is ok to good the rest of his career, like he gets in because of how dominant he is in this 4yr stretch. Like it’s silly though because how long does he need to keep this up? 5? 6? 7? Barring some type of catastrophic injury by Donald it’s envitable he gets into the HOF and NOBODY should be like “it took him till year 6 of his career to lock it up”. People frame of mind just says even though Donald greatness is beyond measure 4yrs seems to short when in reality it’s not. We will never know because Donald isn’t retiring today but he has the HOF already cemented, he is just adding to his great legacy he will eventually leave behind when he does call it a career. You really think someone should into the Hall if they retire after 5 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl4life07 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 39 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Donald is on a HOF pace, but is not a HOFer if he retires today. I think where we all are getting mixed up in is stats. If he retired today he won’t have the stats that a guy has over a 10+yr career. I’m strictly thinking of those who vote for the HOF understand how dominant Donald was on the field not just for one random season but every season he played in and the eye test would come into play rather than just looking at the stats for his career and comparing it to others. Plus if Donald did retire today it would be so unprecedented that the voters would have to approach it differently. What I’m saying is hypothetically what if Donald, AB, Wilson all retired today? Yes it would be unprecedented but does none of those guys I’m get into the HOF? What if Bell retired today? How about Patrick Peterson? Vonn Miller? Does none get in? Like that would be unprecedented that all of them retired in their prime but the voters keeping all those great players out of the HOF because they cut their career short would be crazy. They would have to change the way they view things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl4life07 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said: You really think someone should into the Hall if they retire after 5 years? Not just anybody. Donald isn’t just anybody. He has been dominant since day one and is only getting better if you can believe it or not. That’s more on how Donald has been so great and separated himself from everyone at his position. To me he is on another world in terms of his game and he has been doing it for 4yrs with no drop off. So no not everyone can do it but I’m saying Donald can because he has been that good that I believe if he retired today the voters would put him in. I don’t know how long it would take but he would get in. In other words it comes down to, what more does Donald has to prove? Superbowls isn’t really effective when it comes to defensive tackles. Donald has made the pro bowl every year, all-pro multiple times, defensive player of the year, I’m not quite sure how many times he was runner up to that award. He has ran away with the production at his position in seasons. Like if this was a race Donald would be laughing at everyone in the NFL right now at the defensive tackle position. What really helps Donald too is the deep dive into analytics that sources like PFF does. Again I don’t think Donald has anything more to prove other than adding to his HOF legacy. To say he isn’t a HOF just yet is to say you want to see more. Outside of him winning MVP or a Superbowl which again it’s hard to win MVP on defense and defensive tackles aren’t judge on how many Superbowls they win, like what more is there left to see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, stl4life07 said: What I’m saying is hypothetically what if Donald, AB, Wilson all retired today? Yes it would be unprecedented but does none of those guys I’m get into the HOF? What if Bell retired today? How about Patrick Peterson? Vonn Miller? Does none get in? Like that would be unprecedented that all of them retired in their prime but the voters keeping all those great players out of the HOF because they cut their career short would be crazy. They would have to change the way they view things. I’m not getting into a long debate with you, but correct, most of those players don’t get in. Longevity is a sizable factor in a HOF resume, whether you wish to accept that fact or not. Point to Terrell Davis or Warner, both of which have some uber-media narratives and postseason performances, and I will raise you Patrick Willis (who won’t be getting in) or Sterling Sharpe. You don’t put players in the HOF strictly because they were great players. You put great players that had great careers in the HOF. How accolades, longevity, dominance, and statistics all weigh against each other varies by individual, but you can’t just throw the former two out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 He needs to play at least until he is 30 but then I"d say yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl4life07 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Just now, Yin-Yang said: I’m not getting into a long debate with you, but correct, most of those players don’t get in. Longevity is a sizable factor in a HOF resume, whether you wish to accept that fact or not. Point to Terrell Davis or Warner, both of which have some uber-media narratives and postseason performances, and I will raise you Patrick Willis (who won’t be getting in) or Sterling Sharpe. You don’t put players in the HOF strictly because they were great players. You put great players that had great careers in the HOF. How accolades, longevity, dominance, and statistics all weigh against each other varies by individual, but you can’t just throw the former two out the window. Why not get into a long debate? I love debates and I’m loving this one. You make good points but again a player cutting a career short isn’t the norm so that’s why we might not see players get into the HOF. If it became the norm then the voters would have to change the way to think or else ALOT of great players will be out and players who weren’t as great would be in based on longevity. It’s just an example I’ll use. We love when pitchers get strikeouts in baseball. Way back when it was deemed to be unethical to strike someone out. The rules were a pitcher had to throw the ball over the plate to be hit. Until one day a pitcher decided to not throw a hittable ball. It was a shock to the system because nobody ever did that so from that point on people had to learn how to strategize at the plate because they knew they weren’t going to see hittable balls all the time. Baseball changed forever. So my point is I believe if more and more players start hanging it up after 4, 5, 6, 7 seasons and it became the norm then the voters or criteria would change to some degree or else we won’t hardly no great players in the HOF. Right now though in some aspects you are right but I feel like Donald is so great and he has been so dominant every year that he stepped into the league and with analytics being a big factor now to back his play up that the voters would not keep him out. Can’t tell you how long it would take for him to get in but he would in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, stl4life07 said: Why not get into a long debate? I love debates and I’m loving this one. You make good points but again a player cutting a career short isn’t the norm so that’s why we might not see players get into the HOF. If it became the norm then the voters would have to change the way to think or else ALOT of great players will be out and players who weren’t as great would be in based on longevity. Yeah, maybe, if. That isn’t the case right now, though. Yes it’d be odd seeing a player of Donald’s caliber retiring before their 5th season, but the fact that it’s an oddity doesn’t change the way the HOF works. Maybe you’ve got a point that if a bunch of guys were to do it, the criteria would change, but that’s not the topic. 3 minutes ago, stl4life07 said: Right now though in some aspects you are right but I feel like Donald is so great and he has been so dominant every year that he stepped into the league and with analytics being a big factor now to back his play up that the voters would not keep him out. Can’t tell you how long it would take for him to get in but he would in my opinion. I agree that Donald has been an absolute monster since he stepped into the league and he has largely been the best defensive player in that span (healthy Watt changes this, but that’s besides the point). It’s just like I said, you can’t throw longevity out, even if you don’t think it’s the most important factor (which it isn’t IMO). Same with accolades/narratives. And I know Donald is a DPOY and postseason noise is generally less important for defensive players, but I exchange that for playing with a dominant defense - a factor that I feel helps defensive HOF candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Longevity matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said: Longevity matters. It's why gore is getting in lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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