Jaguars trade Dante Fowler to Rams

[pwny]

6 minutes ago, The LBC said:

I wouldn't hold my breathe on that one, Rammy.

Neither would I. But some team is going to look at his output this season and last, and pair that with his measurables (which aren't great, but teams love guys with 4.6 straight line speed with no bend) and overpay him to be their DE1/1B. It's inevitable. You'll get value in the comp pick.

[Dr LBC]

Just now, stl4life07 said:

All also add that people get caught up too much on draft picks. Draft picks are unknown assets. For a team that has built its foundation through the draft from 2012 until now, they are in a Superbowl mindset. Its like trying to save up to by a car. If you have enough money to get the car you want, why continue to save? What are you waiting for? The Rams built up their roster for at least 4yrs now through the draft, what good does it help them to feel like they need to keep an extra 2019 3rd round pick or a 2020 5th round pick on an unknown rookie? Like thats how teams that should be going for it miss their chance and regret it down the road. Not to mention I trust the Rams organization to draft well no matter where they are picking from in the draft. Afterall they drafted Kupp and Johnson III both in the 3rd round. They didnt even a 1st round pick to get Davis, Williams, or Ross. They still ended up with what looks to be right now the better receiver of the four. So again Im not hung up on draft picks like alot of people are. The Rams needed an edge rusher and they got it. I rather for them to go get one and spend picks to do so then not get one lose in the playoffs because they didnt have one then be like at least they still have that extra 3rd and 5th round pick. Like that would be pointless. 

While I agree that fans tend to overvalue draft picks, you have to be careful not to go too far in the opposite direction because it's equally as naive.

Being able to get WR's (where prospects are traditionally undervalued if they don't have gamebreaking speed, but can be schemed around that) and safeties (again, a traditionally undervalued position barring elite athletic gifts) in the 3rd and 4th rounds isn't a remotely comparable situation to getting long-term starters at positions like edge-rusher or blindside OT, which tend to go at such a premium that you can't be sure of anything other than the "leftovers" or the guys who carry some sort of significant flag (injury, character, etc.) just sitting pat at your 1st round pick outside the Top 15 anymore (teams trade up for those positions on the regular).

The Rams moderately needed an edge-rusher.  It wasn't nearly as pressing as a lot of our fans were making it out to be; the situation certainly wasn't great, but we weren't dead in the water or anywhere close without one, because our coaches were smart enough to figure out how to scheme effective pass-rush from the linebackers without having a standout EDGE.

What we got was a guy who has a ton of unrealized potential and has flashed on occasion, but certainly nowhere close to what anyone should call dependable.  I mean, would you or others really be lauding this as a great deal if it were for Keke Mingo or Dion Jordan?

[Dr LBC]

15 minutes ago, pwny said:

He's going to get more money than he deserves on the open market, regardless. He's the type of player teams love to throw a ton of money at while pretending they can be better than they really are. 

You guys will get good value back on the comp pick. It'll be at least a 4th at worst, higher depending on what you all do.

 

Fowler isn't great, and will never live up to the stupid hype for him. He's never going to be the player that deserves the next contract he's going to get either. I've been a detractor of him since before we drafted him and have never wavered on that. But he's a guy that has the raw tools to eat as a rotational guy when you have great talent next to him. His straight line speed will smoke most trash RTs (which is most of them) one on one. The problem is if you don't have the talent to force teams to put him one on one with their worst OL, he's completely incapable of winning those matchups. But I don't think the Rams will have that problem if he's in the rotation and playing next to Donald and those other guys in your front. Jacksonville and LA are the two places that I see him being able to be the high output depth guy you want. Its a good get for a team that's clearly going all in this season.

 

I'm assuming still I'm correct in my assessment that he's still a liability as a run-defender (honestly , my biggest concern with this because it already wasn't a strength of ours and the surest way to ensure that you don't have to worry about the Rams pass-rushers is to effectively run the ball against us - especially in the playoffs where keeping the offense off the field will likely be valued highly), right?  I mean, recall some pretty poor-quality RT's still managing to bully him at the POA in the run-game just because they managed to get hands on him and he couldn't disengage to save his life.

If we can manage to deploy him only as a Chris Clemons type then I don't have as many issues.  If we're counting on giving him anything more than a rotational role, this has a recipe to really blow up in our faces.

[Riftty]

I think with how much focus teams have to put on Brockers, Suh and Donald a guy with great speed and a high motor could wreck some QBs days. Like Long did with the eagles.

Donald is almost unstoppable as is and he has ZERO pass rush help from our LB core. A 3rd and a 5th to even slightly better a weak stop on what could be a Superbowl team is worth it.

Donald and Suh demand 2 blocks a piece. That opens a lot of wholes on a oline for a quick LB

[stl4life07]

1 minute ago, The LBC said:

While I agree that fans tend to overvalue draft picks, you have to be careful not to go too far in the opposite direction because it's equally as naive.

Being able to get WR's (where prospects are traditionally undervalued if they don't have gamebreaking speed, but can be schemed around that) and safeties (again, a traditionally undervalued position barring elite athletic gifts) in the 3rd and 4th rounds isn't a remotely comparable situation to getting long-term starters at positions like edge-rusher or blindside OT, which tend to go at such a premium that you can't be sure of anything other than the "leftovers" or the guys who carry some sort of significant flag (injury, character, etc.) just sitting pat at your 1st round pick outside the Top 15 anymore (teams trade up for those positions on the regular).

The Rams moderately needed an edge-rusher.  It wasn't nearly as pressing as a lot of our fans were making it out to be; the situation certainly wasn't great, but we weren't dead in the water or anywhere close without one, because our coaches were smart enough to figure out how to scheme effective pass-rush from the linebackers without having a standout EDGE.

What we got was a guy who has a ton of unrealized potential and has flashed on occasion, but certainly nowhere close to what anyone should call dependable.  I mean, would you or others really be lauding this as a great deal if it were for Keke Mingo or Dion Jordan?

No I agree with certain positions are a premium but I am saying the Rams dont have many needs basically and the two glaring needs right now as they are going for a Superbowl run are cornerback (while Talib is out) and edge rusher. Now Talib coming back in a month is an addition. The Rams have nobody of that caliber or even close to add to the pass rusher. Fowler Jr. I liked coming out of college. He didnt fully live up to the hype in Jacksonville but Im not ready to write him off because of it. As I mentioned about Woods, he was in the same situation in Buffalo. The Rams gave him a contract that many said was too much for a guy who hasnt lived up to anything. We knew he had the talent but it was Buffalo. He got to the Rams and is thriving. You noticed nobody is talking about that contract now? So I think Fowler Jr. can be in a way similar. He dont have to be all world, but if he is just good then the Rams win because  they have a threat off the edge that they didnt have before. It can also take the pressure off of the expectations of Obi when he comes back. We all was hoping when he comes back he will be the savior. Now that doesnt have to be the case. If it is then the Rams just got themselves two really good pass rushers down the stretch for the playoffs that will bother Brees, ARod, Cam, Cousins, Wentz in the NFC and Mahomes, Brady, Rivers, Big Ben, Watson in the AFC if the Rams go to the Superbowl. 

[Dr LBC]

1 minute ago, stl4life07 said:

No I agree with certain positions are a premium but I am saying the Rams dont have many needs basically and the two glaring needs right now as they are going for a Superbowl run are cornerback (while Talib is out) and edge rusher. Now Talib coming back in a month is an addition. The Rams have nobody of that caliber or even close to add to the pass rusher. Fowler Jr. I liked coming out of college. He didnt fully live up to the hype in Jacksonville but Im not ready to write him off because of it. As I mentioned about Woods, he was in the same situation in Buffalo. The Rams gave him a contract that many said was too much for a guy who hasnt lived up to anything. We knew he had the talent but it was Buffalo. He got to the Rams and is thriving. You noticed nobody is talking about that contract now? So I think Fowler Jr. can be in a way similar. He dont have to be all world, but if he is just good then the Rams win because  they have a threat off the edge that they didnt have before. It can also take the pressure off of the expectations of Obi when he comes back. We all was hoping when he comes back he will be the savior. Now that doesnt have to be the case. If it is then the Rams just got themselves two really good pass rushers down the stretch for the playoffs that will bother Brees, ARod, Cam, Cousins, Wentz in the NFC and Mahomes, Brady, Rivers, Big Ben, Watson in the AFC if the Rams go to the Superbowl. 

How are the Woods and Fowler situations comparable?  Really, dude, that's a massive stretch and you're working too hard to sell yourself on this.

In terms of what's actually been shown on the field, Ebukam has shown as much as Fowler has - as in he can produce and actually beat an OT who isn't the worst lineman on his team.

People way, WAY oversold the level of "need" that we had.  Wade found a way to synthesize pass-rush from the LB's without having the prototypical EDGE that everyone associates with a 3-4 defense (for the record, that's not Fowler either because he hasn't exhibited the requisite bend except in shorts and against pylons).  We shifted the roles around and allowed Littleton and Barron to be the other penetrators - where the LB's were concerned - and kept Longacre home and on contain.  Our pass-rush wasn't hurt nearly as much by a lack of an presence from the LB corps as it has been by the fact that Donald still can't get a holding call to save his life.

[Forge]

12 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

No I agree with certain positions are a premium but I am saying the Rams dont have many needs basically and the two glaring needs right now as they are going for a Superbowl run are cornerback (while Talib is out) and edge rusher. Now Talib coming back in a month is an addition. The Rams have nobody of that caliber or even close to add to the pass rusher. Fowler Jr. I liked coming out of college. He didnt fully live up to the hype in Jacksonville but Im not ready to write him off because of it. As I mentioned about Woods, he was in the same situation in Buffalo. The Rams gave him a contract that many said was too much for a guy who hasnt lived up to anything. We knew he had the talent but it was Buffalo. He got to the Rams and is thriving. You noticed nobody is talking about that contract now? So I think Fowler Jr. can be in a way similar. He dont have to be all world, but if he is just good then the Rams win because  they have a threat off the edge that they didnt have before. It can also take the pressure off of the expectations of Obi when he comes back. We all was hoping when he comes back he will be the savior. Now that doesnt have to be the case. If it is then the Rams just got themselves two really good pass rushers down the stretch for the playoffs that will bother Brees, ARod, Cam, Cousins, Wentz in the NFC and Mahomes, Brady, Rivers, Big Ben, Watson in the AFC if the Rams go to the Superbowl. 

I mean honestly, FF says that about 93% of the free agent contracts that are signed in any given season for the entire NFL. Quite a few of them actually work out and quite a few of them don't. 

[pwny]

6 hours ago, The LBC said:

I'm assuming still I'm correct in my assessment that he's still a liability as a run-defender (honestly , my biggest concern with this because it already wasn't a strength of ours and the surest way to ensure that you don't have to worry about the Rams pass-rushers is to effectively run the ball against us - especially in the playoffs where keeping the offense off the field will likely be valued highly), right?  I mean, recall some pretty poor-quality RT's still managing to bully him at the POA in the run-game just because they managed to get hands on him and he couldn't disengage to save his life.

If we can manage to deploy him only as a Chris Clemons type then I don't have as many issues.  If we're counting on giving him anything more than a rotational role, this has a recipe to really blow up in our faces.

Our front 7 is entirely undisciplined against the run as a whole, so honestly I'm not sure how much is player and how much it's coaching/scheme.

I think generally if you put him at RE, he's a decent run defender. You lose his entire ability to be a pass rusher against guys who are out there to be pass blockers, but against the majority of LTs (who tend to not be as polished run defenders as RTs are), he does decent as a run defender.

We see him less in that role the last two years, as he's become a specialized pass rusher for us, but that was largely the case in 2016, which was the last time he was used like that. Many of us on the forum used to say he's not a good enough pass rusher to be a RE, and he's not a good enough run defender to be a LE. The rotation work we've got him doing, where he's played like 6-7 run plays per game works for him.

 

Really, getting success with him is largely going to be about deciding when to use him as a run defender on the weak link vs when to use him as a pass rusher on the weak link. 

[stl4life07]

1 minute ago, The LBC said:

How are the Woods and Fowler situations comparable?  Really, dude, that's a massive stretch and you're working too hard to sell yourself on this.

In terms of what's actually been shown on the field, Ebukam has shown as much as Fowler has - as in he can produce and actually beat an OT who isn't the worst lineman on his team.

People way, WAY oversold the level of "need" that we had.  Wade found a way to synthesize pass-rush from the LB's without having the prototypical EDGE that everyone associates with a 3-4 defense (for the record, that's not Fowler either because he hasn't exhibited the requisite bend except in shorts and against pylons).  We shifted the roles around and allowed Littleton and Barron to be the other penetrators - where the LB's were concerned - and kept Longacre home and on contain.  Our pass-rush wasn't hurt nearly as much by a lack of an presence from the LB corps as it has been by the fact that Donald still can't get a holding call to save his life.

Im not overstretching with Woods. All his career highs is with the Rams. While he was with Buffalo he wasnt anything special which led people to continue with the notion that USC receivers never make it in the NFL. When the Rams signed Woods people was skeptical at best because of the contract that was giving him and he hasnt lived up to anything. The only thing that anyone could say was moving forward maybe it will be a fresh start for Woods and he can turn his career around in LA under McVay. He did. He was young just like Fowler is. The only difference is Fowler is a 1st round pick and he was traded for not signed as a free agent. But see I like these moves the Rams are making because I trust them. I liked the Woods signing because I saw him being a talented player playing in Buffalo. I like Fowler. I see him as a talented player playing in Jacksonville. Woods is now in the best situation to succeed which he is doing. No coincidence that the second he left Buffalo he hit his career highs and is getting better. Watch Fowler do the same thing. The only real question is, will Fowler be here long term? As for this season it wouldnt shock me if Fowler makes some of those difference making plays in the playoffs that we just wasnt getting from Ebukam and Longacre. 

[El Ramster]

1 hour ago, The LBC said:

I wouldn't hold my breathe on that one, Rammy.

Positive my man! Thinking positive. We were all shocked Sammy got what he got. 

Also, read that the initial asking price was a 2nd and 4th.

I want what the Jags FO

is smoking. 

 

But either way at worst he’s a minimal upgrade at what we have, and we desperately need. 

Thanks for the write up @pwny

[MookieMonstah]

3 hours ago, jrry32 said:

At first, I wasn't sure about this trade. Now, I love it.

Because you got an average DE? Meh. 14 sacks and 22 QB hits in 2.5 seasons is meh city. Probably the best pass rusher available, but that certainly isn't a glowing review.

[showtime]

I really like this trade for the Rams.  They're getting a guy with a lot of talent and maybe Wade Phillips can do something with him.  Fowler doesn't have to be amazing or live up to his draft status; he just has to be a solid player.  If the Rams didn't have their genius defensive coach then I wouldn't be nearly as high on this move as I currently am. 

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Because you got an average DE? Meh. 14 sacks and 22 QB hits in 2.5 seasons is meh city. Probably the best pass rusher available, but that certainly isn't a glowing review.

Nope. Because people think we overpaid. The last few moves that were called overpays worked out beautifully. 

[KhanYouDigIt]

30 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Nope. Because people think we overpaid. The last few moves that were called overpays worked out beautifully. 

Within the last 9 months, he recorded 3 sacks against the Pats. Could come in handy if a Pats/Rams SB occurs.

[Tugboat]

6 hours ago, pwny said:

He's going to get more money than he deserves on the open market, regardless. He's the type of player teams love to throw a ton of money at while pretending they can be better than they really are. 

You guys will get good value back on the comp pick. It'll be at least a 4th at worst, higher depending on what you all do.

 

Fowler isn't great, and will never live up to the stupid hype for him. He's never going to be the player that deserves the next contract he's going to get either. I've been a detractor of him since before we drafted him and have never wavered on that. But he's a guy that has the raw tools to eat as a rotational guy when you have great talent next to him. His straight line speed will smoke most trash RTs (which is most of them) one on one. The problem is if you don't have the talent to force teams to put him one on one with their worst OL, he's completely incapable of winning those matchups. But I don't think the Rams will have that problem if he's in the rotation and playing next to Donald and those other guys in your front. Jacksonville and LA are the two places that I see him being able to be the high output depth guy you want. Its a good get for a team that's clearly going all in this season.

 

This is the part where the Jaguars potentially get completely rinsed in this trade.

 

In a lot of ways, Fowler is perfectly tailored to be that impact sack accumulator in a Wade Phillips defense with that absurd DLine causing havoc.  He's going to be able to rush standing up, get big runs at guys and use that whole speed and speed-to-power gambit he uses in abundance, to win.  He's going to eat, with that mostly 1-dimensional ability to be a Quinn-lite...in that rush LBer role and a monster DLine drawing all kinds of attention.  It'll be Fowler vs RT Chump unassisted, and he's probably going to feast without the slightest whiff of finesse.  Fowler has a motor, he's violent and physical, and he'll play right through the whistle...with pretty good athletic traits in a lot of respects.

 

Which is the same **** the Rams pulled with Sammy Watkins.  Trade for a guy running out his rookie deal, get that stretch drive and into the playoffs value out of them on the field...then let them walk and recoup a big compensatory pick on them.

Someone is going to watch Fowler rip it up as a Wade Phillips 3-4 LBer and spend stupid money on him as a FA.  Which in turn...will probably net the Rams a compensatory pick that more or less compensates for what they spent on him in trade here.