AlexGreen#20 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 41 minutes ago, Cheech said: Breeland, Jackson, or Tramon can bump inside to the slot. Breeland, Tramon or Whitehead can play FS. This DB group has a lot of flexibility. It isn't going to be all that hard to replace a guy who sat deep and jogged up to the scene of the crime on 75% of his snaps. Alexander should be playing in the slot until he leaves this team. I have no idea why you would change that. As far as safety: Whitehead played one snap of deep coverage the entire second half against the Rams. A cover 2 look. He played no snaps of single high. I haven't watched the first half yet, but when the coaches are choosing to put Brice back there over Whitehead, that's an issue for me. What on Earth has Breeland done to show he's ready to play football again, much less do a position change? Breeland is a physical on the LOS CB. You're talking about two totally different worlds there. While Tramon is probably capable of playing the back end. You're talking a lot of bullets out of your gun by fielding a safety you're going to be scared to have in the box to fill gaps. Let's be real, Tramon isn't exactly a great run defender playing CB. you can probably leave the guy back there for the vast majority of plays in this defense, but it makes you much easier to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said: 4 CBs, 2 Safeties? It would seem to me there isn't a huge difference between Josh Jackson or Tramon Williams in the slot and what a safety was doing. They blitz, they cover tight ends tight ends, they participate in run support. And it may have been HHCD trying not to get injured in a contract year, but it seems like our deep safety is more of an insurance policy this year and not a key player on the defense- not the kind of position to dump millions into in free agency. The position just isn't drawn into the action all that often, and it didn't seem like HHCD was showing the range to get to where the ball was going and break up the deep ball very often at all. Brice would get there but he would mess up, HHCD wouldn't get there. He didn't really impact the deep safety role which it seems he he plays often, and other guys have done well near the line of scrimmage. I may be just showing a lot of confirmation bias, or whistling past the graveyard, but it just seems to me that Pettine's defense marginalizes the deep safety and this move won't be that large of an impact on the performance of the D. Difference between Brice and the CBs is the quality of run support you're going to see out of it. Free Safety (Or High Safety) is always a position that isn't going to be highly involved on a down to down basis. On standard downs, he's responsible for a zone that stretches from basically half between the numbers and hash marks to halfway between the numbers and hash marks on the other side. 20 yards downfield and back. In that role, the fact that you're not noticing him is probably a good thing. It means he's not getting targeted. The worst thing a Free Safety can do is to "chase the rabbit", meaning to crash down on a shallower in breaking route, leaving his deeper zone and allowing a bigger play. It's a disaster because the CB is almost never in good coverage on those routes because he expects to have help on any kind of post route. Playing Free Safety is hard because you have to make the judgement call, do I crash down on this TE in route, or do I stay back, let the QB complete the ball and then come up and try and make the tackle? A ton of NFL route concepts now a days are about splitting the FS and forcing him to make that call. As far as the Brice comparison, man Brice was getting thrown on in two high safety looks. There's just zero respect for Brice to be able to stay with anybody, or even to be able to make a play on the ball when it's in the air. My biggest concern right now with this defense is what happens when you combine the growing pains of a new Free Safety, with a complete lack of 4 man pass rush, and a QB who doesn't respect the deep coverage. I fully expect to see a ton more Cover-2 using Greene and Brice back there together, but that has it's own long set of issues. The other big issue at the moment is that with the lack of 4 man pressures (again, part of Pettine's defense to an extent) we blitz a ton. When you blitz, your CBs like we've been doing a ton of, you isolate your Safeties on WRs. We may very well just end up blitzing the Safeties (which we did a lot against the Rams, I think Whitehead had like 11 rushes) rather than the CBs, but I'm really worried we're going to end up in a situation where the back end coverage is too weak to regularly blitz and the front 4 are too gap control minded to generate much pressure. A lack of deep coverage ability with a lack of pass rush seems like a horrible combination. Hopefully Brice and Greene are ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 15 hours ago, TheGreeK1973 said: I just wanted to drop in and say thank you guys for your generosity. I hope he isn't averse to making tackles for you guys like he was for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 15 hours ago, Lodestar said: Isn't Jackson's ceiling pretty high at CB? Not sure I want to play him out of position and derail his development. Tramon is intriguing. To my knowledge he's never played FS before. I guess it depends how much tackling you're willing to sacrifice for ball skills. Jones I feel is the logical pick. Would make this trade look like a no-brainer if he starts and plays well. **Editing to add that I feel Whitehead will get more snaps as a result of this trade, but continuing in the hybrid role Pettine seems to like him in. Didn't Tramon play a little safety for Pettine in Cleveland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_gb Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 15 hours ago, TheGreeK1973 said: Sure it might be a rental, but we get a compensatory 3rd round pick so its a wash if he walks. But I can see Norman getting restructured next year and we keep him. only 11 million to tag him I don't know what Safety market you've been watching over the past 2 years but he isn't getting you a 3rd round comp pick. You're most likely getting a 4th round comp pick which actually makes it a wash -- the difference being the Packers decided to collect on their pick a year early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 12 hours ago, cannondale said: 6'-4" 210 - I can go to the fridge and back while not fumbling a beer in 10 seconds flat. Knock a full second off that time in stressful situations like a commercial being over sooner than expected. I also helped coach my daughters softball team and sometimes had to bend over to pick up stuff 6'4"? You are tall. I can get a beer from the fridge without fumbling too but not that quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 11 hours ago, tredpack said: I keep on forgetting about Breeland. Really feel like he has major role to play in this move. The dude has never played safety in the NFL (that I recall?) and its not like its a move just any corner can make, but his lack of play time has me really wondering if he has been working on a safety role. All said and done, its either Williams, Jones, Whitehead, Brice, Breeland (total outside chance) *additional thought* Breeland gives the extra depth to move Williams if needed. I hope his hammy is feeling better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 7 hours ago, cannondale said: Poor Tramon. First returning punts, now time at safety. The Packers sure aren't shy about putting his 35 year old body at risk It is apparent Tramon can't keep up with speedy WRs these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, Nick_gb said: I don't know what Safety market you've been watching over the past 2 years but he isn't getting you a 3rd round comp pick. You're most likely getting a 4th round comp pick which actually makes it a wash -- the difference being the Packers decided to collect on their pick a year early. Plus. Everyone keeps ignoring the part where if we sign someone we don't get the comp pick. Comp picks arent for guys you lose you in free agency. Comp picks are for players you don't replace in free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 28 minutes ago, Pugger said: Didn't Tramon play a little safety for Pettine in Cleveland? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Cheech said: Breeland, Jackson, or Tramon can bump inside to the slot. Breeland, Tramon or Whitehead can play FS. This DB group has a lot of flexibility. It isn't going to be all that hard to replace a guy who sat deep and jogged up to the scene of the crime on 75% of his snaps. Agree with this - except - I have reservations of Tramon covering the slot WR - unless his a converted Tackle to TE. I dont like to (or usually) rag on players - but I've got an uneasy feel for his ability to keep up in coverage. Now, its not the norm across the board - but often the slot WR is the quickest - biggest pain in the *** guy to cover. Btw - it would be NICE to get Breeland on the field! I cant keep looking at his highlight reel and projecting that he can still get it done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Danneskjold Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Difference between Brice and the CBs is the quality of run support you're going to see out of it. Free Safety (Or High Safety) is always a position that isn't going to be highly involved on a down to down basis. On standard downs, he's responsible for a zone that stretches from basically half between the numbers and hash marks to halfway between the numbers and hash marks on the other side. 20 yards downfield and back. In that role, the fact that you're not noticing him is probably a good thing. It means he's not getting targeted. The worst thing a Free Safety can do is to "chase the rabbit", meaning to crash down on a shallower in breaking route, leaving his deeper zone and allowing a bigger play. It's a disaster because the CB is almost never in good coverage on those routes because he expects to have help on any kind of post route. Playing Free Safety is hard because you have to make the judgement call, do I crash down on this TE in route, or do I stay back, let the QB complete the ball and then come up and try and make the tackle? A ton of NFL route concepts now a days are about splitting the FS and forcing him to make that call. As far as the Brice comparison, man Brice was getting thrown on in two high safety looks. There's just zero respect for Brice to be able to stay with anybody, or even to be able to make a play on the ball when it's in the air. My biggest concern right now with this defense is what happens when you combine the growing pains of a new Free Safety, with a complete lack of 4 man pass rush, and a QB who doesn't respect the deep coverage. I fully expect to see a ton more Cover-2 using Greene and Brice back there together, but that has it's own long set of issues. The other big issue at the moment is that with the lack of 4 man pressures (again, part of Pettine's defense to an extent) we blitz a ton. When you blitz, your CBs like we've been doing a ton of, you isolate your Safeties on WRs. We may very well just end up blitzing the Safeties (which we did a lot against the Rams, I think Whitehead had like 11 rushes) rather than the CBs, but I'm really worried we're going to end up in a situation where the back end coverage is too weak to regularly blitz and the front 4 are too gap control minded to generate much pressure. A lack of deep coverage ability with a lack of pass rush seems like a horrible combination. Hopefully Brice and Greene are ready. I don't really think that is a fair assessment of what I am saying. It boils down to this for me: We really didn't have a guy who could play free safety effectively. It is not that I didn't notice HHCD - its that what I see is a guy with very limited range. I don't think that he hasn't been thrown at per se- he has been positioned where a team can't really throw at him. I am not concerned about him not crashing down, I am more concerned that he seems late getting to deep plays. An example of what I see is the deep completion to Cooks at 14:12 in the 4th quarter. Dix and Brice interact pre snap, and Brice goes down into the box and ends up in coverage on Gurley underneath. As the play develops, both deep threats go to the left side of the field, and Dix as the deep safety never really moves off the right hash despite not having a receiving threat on the right half of the field, and there being coverage support from an unoccupied corner on the right side. All he does is move backwards and an insignificant amount toward the play. He makes no significant read on the play, and that takes him out of the play. He may not get to the play to break up the pass, but what if Alexander slips? Dix can't even support a broken tackle the way he played that play. I feel like you see that a lot with him lately. It could be the contract issue has killed his attitude, but I would think as a competitor he would want better. I feel like he took the business side of it a bit too far, and that makes me uncomfortable giving him a big deal, and it makes me think he wouldn't have been that helpful going forward this season. It is not that I think he is a bad player, I just don't think he is playing like he needs to play. He looks like a guy who is going through the motions trying not to get injured in anticipation of free agency. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadyToThump Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I feel pretty good about getting a 4th out of a league average safety. Never understood the hype HHCD got from your average packer fans. One of the worst players I've seen in a long time when it comes to taking angles on a ball carrier and was often a step or two behind in his coverages aswell. Adios, HaHa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Alexander should be playing in the slot until he leaves this team. I have no idea why you would change that. As far as safety: Whitehead played one snap of deep coverage the entire second half against the Rams. A cover 2 look. He played no snaps of single high. I haven't watched the first half yet, but when the coaches are choosing to put Brice back there over Whitehead, that's an issue for me. What on Earth has Breeland done to show he's ready to play football again, much less do a position change? Breeland is a physical on the LOS CB. You're talking about two totally different worlds there. While Tramon is probably capable of playing the back end. You're talking a lot of bullets out of your gun by fielding a safety you're going to be scared to have in the box to fill gaps. Let's be real, Tramon isn't exactly a great run defender playing CB. you can probably leave the guy back there for the vast majority of plays in this defense, but it makes you much easier to read. So play Jones then and live and die by what he gives you. You spent a 2nd on him, you traded HHCD, this is what you wanted now make it work Gute/Mac. It's a knock on Pettine if he can't make something useful out of Jones. We saw the Bengals game. Guy certainly has tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{Family Ghost} Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Would have been sweet to land a 3rd for HHCD, but it is what it is .. he was available to the entire league and the best offer was a 4th. Too bad we couldn't get a Cowboys style overpay. The expiring contract was probably the biggest issue. Washington may only get 8 or 9 games out of the guy. As for the replacement ... seems like it's going to be Whitehead to start off with. I read somewhere that he's the sharpest of the bunch and will not struggle to get people lined up. I think I read that he played over 90 percent of the snaps last week, so he's seeing the field a lot. Tramon could also see some time at safety as well. Hopefully Breeland is ready to go this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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