Thoughts on Josh Allen

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 hours ago, The BILLievers said:

When fans of other teams try lecturing you about the film of your starting QB by posting youtube highlight reels  dude you've watched 3 minutes of the red zone channel and googled josh allen highlight videos. you look at the box scores and you think the combination of that + some youtube highlights make things a fact. 

Josh Allens rushing stats are so good for two reasons : 1) because he's an amazing athlete and 2) because teams play man coverage against him and turn their back not wanting to get beat in the air. How can you say Allen isn't a talented runner? You see when he hurdled anthony barr? or his 8 rushing touchdowns? He's a 6'5" white dude who weighs 240 pounds and can throw the ball 80 yards in the air. He's not as agile as Lamar or Russell Wilson but he still managed 8 rushing touchdowns and 630 rushing yards in 12 games. That doesn't happen by luck.

Ask any Bills fan and his passing was night and day before and after injury. We had a bottom 3 OL, bottom 3 WR corp, bottom 3 running game, and no tight end. Yet he went .500 in the last 6 games of the season. With maturity, a new OL and new weapons  i think he'll take another leap forward. 

And let me be clear,I hated the Josh Allen pick when we made it. It was group think because of social media but if i had to redraft the only QB I'd consider over Allen is Baker. 

I simply made the claim that Allen's rushing yardage is a culmination of scrambles on passing plays where there is nobody accounting for him. I backed that up with a complete game of scrambles where nobody accounts for him. The Bills, for the most part, aren't using designed runs with Josh Allen like the Ravens are with Lamar Jackson, or any other team is with a mobile QB. That's really all I was trying to show - that his production for the most part is happening not because it's designed that way, but because defenses clearly have not given him the respect they give other mobile QB's. That will change over time.

Again, if y'all wanna show me that teams are spying Allen and that his scramble yardage is just him being better than the spies assigned to stopping him, be my guest.

[frenchie]

I think he did a decent job, considering the laughable supporting cast.  I think he exceeded most folks' expectations; I remember talking heads writing him off days after he was drafted, so overall he was certainly able to shut them up for now. 

He's an electric runner, and so far, appears to have all the intangibles, but one thing is quite obvious, he will have to significantly improve as a passer in order to have any real success.

- 52% completion rate is unacceptable in my book.

- 10 PTDs to 12 INTs in 11 starts is unacceptable.

IMO, as a rookie who didn't have much help, he's certainly solidified himself as a starting caliber QB, but he'll have to be considerably more efficient as a passer.

[GSUeagles14]

10 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

1. Just because Allen is attempting “more difficult throws” means nothing if he isn’t completing said throws. The fact that Lamar has a higher Y/A goes to show that he is completing longer gains more consistently.

In terms of the “real question” of accuracy 5 years from now, more likely Jackson will have superior accuracy. He’s a year younger than Allen and has put forth better completion numbers than Allen throughout their respective careers to this point. Jackson has also generally improved upon his completion% each year he receives experience while Allen’s did not budge. There is much more evidence to suggest that Lamar will continue to improve the consistency of his throws at a greater clip than Allen than the opposite. If you claim otherwise than find me statistics to back said claim or otherwise hold your peace.

2. Counter the rest of my point or we have nothing to discuss. You said Allen’s a better runner, if he is then how come his teams rushing attack has struggled mightily considering his would be impact as an elite rusher?

In terms of YPC, Lamar has more designed runs, while Allen has more scramble runs. When Jackson is in the pocket he generally looks to buy as much time with his feet to extend passing plays versus scrambling too often on pass plays.

3. I’m generally confused as to what you’re trying to even type. And perhaps you’re not  digesting the statistics provided but the point is simple. While throwing 20% less passes/game than Allen, Lamar Jackson has thrown for slightly more yards per game. 

Your logic is flawed. Perhaps your logic needs to take its talents to south beach for a little R&R.

1. thats not what that means at all. its a real problem you dont understand the stats youre using.

as far as who could have better accuracy when both have horrible today, its pretty much impossible to say. trying to is pretty foolish so ill just stick with if both can gain middling accuracy.

2. you get get to demand people debate from a stupid stand point. using volume only was intentional, biased and its just a stupid stat to use.

do you have a significant sample you can post to back this up, somewhere between 75-100 plays to back this up. or is it just bs?

 

3. mostly im saying its an irrelevant point as both a well below passers today. nothing you posted changes the fact that allen has a more talented arm and if this is who they are as passers in 5 years both teams are in trouble. so while jackson has a better year passing, neither was good and it doesnt change allens upside and arm is still higher.

 

 

id like to say your logic is flawed but that would mean id have to see some. you clearly want jackson to be the answer and then try amd come up with arguments (crappy ones in this case) to help get there. maybe one of those how to books will help you out some?

[BleedTheClock]

Lamar Jackson is a better runner than Josh Allen.

 

That being said, Josh Allen is a better QB and will have a long shelf life in the NFL. Lamar Jackson is someone I see getting injured very soon. He's got a target on his head. If I'm coaching the opposing defense, I'm telling my guys to snap his toothpick legs every time he runs. It's going to happen, Ravens fans. Until then, enjoy the offense. It is fun to watch and frustrating to stop, but eventually Lamar Jackson is going to be smushed.

 

Oh, and don't tell me Lamar Jackson is a better passer. That's the most hilarious argument I've ever seen. Lamar Jackson's passing has somehow devolved moving into the NFL and I've seen some of the worst throws I've ever seen made by him this season. He is clearly not ready to be an NFL passer right now which is fine. But eventually his body is going to break down and teams are going to figure out how to stop the run game. If you force Lamar Jackson to become 1-dimensional, he's going to be an abomination.

[tyler735]

I'm taking Jackson over Allen. Allen has a bit stronger of an arm, but I'll take Jackson (who also possesses excellent arm strength) who has shown to be more accurate in college and the NFL so far. Given Jackson's rare athleticism combined with his arm talent, I think he has a higher ceiling than Allen as well. 

[BleedTheClock]

14 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

I'm taking Jackson over Allen. Allen has a bit stronger of an arm, but I'll take Jackson (who also possesses excellent arm strength) who has shown to be more accurate in college and the NFL so far. Given Jackson's rare athleticism combined with his arm talent, I think he has a higher ceiling than Allen as well. 

Have you watched Lamar Jackson play this year? Accurate is not something I would ever call him. And he gets more gimme throws than any QB in the league right now because of the quirky offense they employ. He's an absolutely dreadful passer. Is Allen accurate? No, but he also drives the ball down the field a lot more and has an infinitely more difficult situation around him. That's why the numbers are the way they are. I've never seen Josh Allen miss wide open players the way Lamar Jackson has.

[jrry32]

20 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Have you watched Lamar Jackson play this year? Accurate is not something I would ever call him. And he gets more gimme throws than any QB in the league right now because of the quirky offense they employ. He's an absolutely dreadful passer. Is Allen accurate? No, but he also drives the ball down the field a lot more and has an infinitely more difficult situation around him. That's why the numbers are the way they are. I've never seen Josh Allen miss wide open players the way Lamar Jackson has.

Then I question if you've watched him play. I've seen Josh Allen miss wide open players every which way.

[tyler735]

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

Have you watched Lamar Jackson play this year? Accurate is not something I would ever call him. And he gets more gimme throws than any QB in the league right now because of the quirky offense they employ. He's an absolutely dreadful passer. Is Allen accurate? No, but he also drives the ball down the field a lot more and has an infinitely more difficult situation around him. That's why the numbers are the way they are. I've never seen Josh Allen miss wide open players the way Lamar Jackson has.

Yep I have watched just about every game Jackson has played his past 3 seasons. "More accurate than Allen" isn't the same thing as me calling him accurate by average league standards right now. Allen hasn't been accurate in college or the pros. There is always some sort of excuse made for Allen when people bring up his accuracy. You state Jackson gets all of these "gimme throws" because of a quirky offense, but in reality his insane athleticism has a significant effect on how defenses have to defend him. So yes this will at times allow for Jackson to have some easier throws than other QB's in the NFL. Despite all of the excuses for Allen, Jackson at this point has a better:

Y/A

AY/A

QB Rating

Completion %

TD %

INT %

Just for fun you state Lamar Jackson gets all these "gimme throws". Here's a few of his touchdowns this year. Might not be crazy tight coverage, but they certainly are nice throws with perfect ball placement, and does just fine "driving the ball downfield". I'd also add that Josh Allen has certainly missed wide open players at both the college and pro level.

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

A who’s more accurate debate between Allen and Jackson lol

I love this thread....

Cant everyone just agree neither could hit water if they fell out of a boat and move on 😂 

[The BILLievers]

LOL on Lamar Jackson being more accurate and having a higher ceiling than Josh Allen but no point of the back and forth; I'll let it play out. Also, Lamar Jacksons completion % was so high in college because he played in an offense that featured a ton of screens and short passes. Quite the opposite of the passing downfield Allen had to do. When i watch Lamar Jackson this year he looks like a WR or RB when he brings the ball back and looks to throw. Allen actually looks like a QB. 

and @jrry32 are you talking college? Allen missing by miles or this bs narrative people keep talking? I've watched every second of every bills game last season and the majority of the incompletions allen suffered where when the WR wasn't open and it was essentially just a contested catch and throw. What were your thoughts on Jared Goff after he had a 54% completion percentage, 5:7 TD:INT ratio and less than 200 yards per game his rookie year????

[DreamKid]

1 minute ago, The BILLievers said:

Also, Lamar Jacksons completion % was so high in college because he played in an offense that featured a ton of screens and short passes.

False.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

 

2 minutes ago, The BILLievers said:

What were your thoughts on Jared Goff after he had a 54% completion percentage, 5:7 TD:INT ratio and less than 200 yards per game his rookie year????

I won’t speak for @jrry32, but I was still a huge fan because I could look back to his college throws and see an accurate passer and the stats to back it up.

I didn’t see the same thing when I watched Allen.

JMO....

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, The BILLievers said:

and @jrry32 are you talking college? Allen missing by miles or this bs narrative people keep talking? I've watched every second of every bills game last season and the majority of the incompletions allen suffered where when the WR wasn't open and it was essentially just a contested catch and throw. What were your thoughts on Jared Goff after he had a 54% completion percentage, 5:7 TD:INT ratio and less than 200 yards per game his rookie year????

My thoughts were that Goff had a disappointing rookie year, but I was still sold on him based on the traits he displayed in college and flashed at times that year despite the terrible circumstances. If Allen were a highly accurate college QB who struggled as a rookie in difficult circumstances in Buffalo, I'd feel differently about him. Instead, he was an inaccurate college QB who has seen his accuracy problems continue in the NFL. Why should I believe that will change?

[GSUeagles14]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

My thoughts were that Goff had a disappointing rookie year, but I was still sold on him based on the traits he displayed in college and flashed at times that year despite the terrible circumstances. If Allen were a highly accurate college QB who struggled as a rookie in difficult circumstances in Buffalo, I'd feel differently about him. Instead, he was an inaccurate college QB who has seen his accuracy problems continue in the NFL. Why should I believe that will change?

you dont have to really believe anything but its not realistic to think any qb would fix his warts in teh time from being drafted to his first season. This upcoming offseason is the real tets to see if he can improve. And theres nothing  better than not being able to adjust thoughts/expectations, its like the few guys here who swore up and down calloway would be the best thing since sliced bread. Goff was an average qb the 2nd half of the year, hes far from being an established qb. Heck, a bad start to next year could put his long term future in la in doubt.

 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

A who’s more accurate debate between Allen and Jackson lol

I love this thread....

Cant everyone just agree neither could hit water if they fell out of a boat and move on 😂 

I think, instead of posting gifs where each QB makes good throws, we should post gifs where QB's miss blatantly open WR's on very easy throws. It'd make this much more entertaining. I wish I could find the gif of Lamar Jackson throwing a ball 3 feet short of Willie Snead on a curl route against Carolina, but idk how to find it.