Baltimore Ravens 2019 Offseason Tracker

[Danand]

I just don't see Harbaughs aversion to play rookies. Just as Ravens took their time putting Marlon and Jimmy on the field in their rookie season, so does the Bengals have a tradition keeping their 1. round rookie cornerbacks on their bench for 1-2 years.

Stanley played as a rookie, Lamar, Bozeman, Andrews, Hurst where all contributors, Kenny Young as well and when he got the chance, Orlando Brown became a starter.  In the latter case, the coaching staff sat him for too long, but all the others got their shot in their rookie season. That shows me that the team doesn't mind playing rookies or young players - Tavon Young and Humphrey are other examples.

Now, maybe, just maybe the liability Bowser and Williams could be on the field outweighs their upside. I know this is a personal reference again, but I believe it is a pretty common thing. On our team, we had pass rushers that "read" pass all the time, simply because it was more fun to rush the passer than set the edge - it could be such a thing, but we don't see that problem because it happens during practice. If McPhee stays healthy and take Suggs spot, I don't think that is because Harbaugh hates young players, then it has to be because Bowser and Williams doesn't execute the way they should.

[DreamKid]

10 minutes ago, Danand said:

I just don't see Harbaughs aversion to play rookies. Just as Ravens took their time putting Marlon and Jimmy on the field in their rookie season, so does the Bengals have a tradition keeping their 1. round rookie cornerbacks on their bench for 1-2 years.

So? The Bengals are an awful organization. Who gives a F what they do? Slow cooking Marlon hurt the team. Brandon Carr didn't play like he did last year in 2017. There was no reason to start him over Marlon. Him not getting more time early was a big point of contention among the fans back then. Marlon was a perfect example of a young player being held back. If Jimmy hadn't gone down with the injury he never would've gotten the proper time. A scary thought. Marlon never proving his phenom status by shutting down Brown and Green to end the year. Oof, strong possibility he'd be 4th in a rotation behind Smith, Young, and Carr right now.

16 minutes ago, Danand said:

Stanley played as a rookie, Lamar, Bozeman, Andrews, Hurst where all contributors, Kenny Young as well and when he got the chance, Orlando Brown became a starter.  In the latter case, the coaching staff sat him for too long, but all the others got their shot in their rookie season. That shows me that the team doesn't mind playing rookies or young players - Tavon Young and Humphrey are other examples.

Ronnie Stanley was a Top 6 pick with no competition at his position. Bozeman and Andrews played because of injuries. Hayden and Lamar were 1st Round Picks. Of course the team doesn't mind playing young players when they're forced to. That's never what this was about. It's about Harbaugh opting out of relying on them when he has other options.

When there was the "open competition" in camp between Kenny and Peanut. It became apparent to everyone that Kenny was winning/going to win. He was making plays at a crazy clip both in games and on the practice field. Peanut was dead to rights and reporters started picking up on it, even referencing Wink's own words on the situation. What did Harbaugh do? He comes out and talks about how it's a compliment that Young is even in the conversation with a veteran like Peanut, and takes on a negative tone essentially dismissing there actually being a competition. Kenny outclassed Onwuasor, a player who was a weak spot on the defense in 2017 and still he could only crack a rotation. 

Orlando Brown Jr., Hayden Hurst, Mark Andrews, Chris Moore, Tyus Bowser, Tim Williams, Kenny Young, and Chuck Clark. All of them should've seen more time. They either had underwhelming veterans in front of them, or they have a skill set we could've made better use of. 

45 minutes ago, Danand said:

Now, maybe, just maybe the liability Bowser and Williams could be on the field outweighs their upside. I know this is a personal reference again, but I believe it is a pretty common thing. On our team, we had pass rushers that "read" pass all the time, simply because it was more fun to rush the passer than set the edge - it could be such a thing, but we don't see that problem because it happens during practice. If McPhee stays healthy and take Suggs spot, I don't think that is because Harbaugh hates young players, then it has to be because Bowser and Williams doesn't execute the way they should.

The liability they could be. You're basing this on something you think could potentially be going on in practice? Don't you see how you're reaching for the conclusion you want? How about we actually saw Judon play poorly against the run & pass, while also drawing penalties with reckless behavior. That's something that actually happened. Judon's early season showing should've earned him the bench, but they didn't even dip his snap count. Where does that factor in with your logic?

"Then it has to be because Bowser and Williams doesn't execute the way they should". lol Yea no, you're definitely not biased at all. 

If Alex Lewis and Hayden Hurst never got injured, we wouldn't have seen Orlando or Mark all year. And you'd still be arguing "Well there has to be some reason why Harbaugh didn't want to use them". And the reason you'd come up with would be a dig at the players, not the coach. 

[Danand]

Bengals and other teams have the same approach with rookies, Bill Belichick hates rookies and young players as well, or so I have heard from Pats fans several times.

Not playing rookies immediately isn't just a Harbaugh thing. We just wrote in a thread where you asked what happened to young guards with the Chargers. Their coaching staff must have legit reasons to place Lamp on the bench, or are they holding Lamp back too?

What i am arguing is, that using rookies the way we do is not something extraordinary - other teams or most teams does it as well - and sometimes they are right to do so, and some times they are wrong.

I think you are guessing/betting on potential, just as I am guessing on the possibility on factors we can't know about.

[DreamKid]

9 minutes ago, Danand said:

Bengals and other teams have the same approach with rookies, Bill Belichick hates rookies and young players as well, or so I have heard from Pats fans several times.

FWIW Just off the top of my head, I know JC Jackson and Sony Michel were key players for the Patriots run last year.

As I've said multiple times, a coach preferring to not lean on rookies and young talent is a reasonable position. It's when they carry the philosophy to a fault that it becomes an issue.

14 minutes ago, Danand said:

Not playing rookies immediately isn't just a Harbaugh thing. We just wrote in a thread where you asked what happened to young guards with the Chargers. Their coaching staff must have legit reasons to place Lamp on the bench, or are they holding Lamp back too?

I don't know the circumstances surrounding Lamp. I'm not a Charger fan. You're acting like all rookies and young players are exactly equal entities, and that by Harbaugh doing something with his one of his rookies that another coach has- it's then automatically correct or acceptable. It's hard to think of a dumber argument.

26 minutes ago, Danand said:

What i am arguing is, that using rookies the way we do is not something extraordinary - other teams or most teams does it as well - and sometimes they are right to do so, and some times they are wrong.

That's not what you've been arguing. You've been arguing that if a young player or rookie isn't playing or receiving time commensurate with displayed talent, that there then has to be reason for it that includes a deficiency or liability in their game. Instead of Harbaugh being biased against said young players/rookies, especially in circumstances when he can get away with leaning on a passable veteran talent. Don't disavow it now.

35 minutes ago, Danand said:

I think you are guessing/betting on potential, just as I am guessing on the possibility on factors we can't know about.

I'm not guessing or betting on anything. I'm basing every conclusion on all the evidence available to me. I didn't magically come to the conclusion that specific players are due for more time. If Bowser and Williams or any young player I've referenced didn't flash, or the players in front of them hadn't faltered- this wouldn't be a topic. If the only constant of said players' situations wasn't youth, and Harbaugh. Then I and others wouldn't have come to this obvious conclusion about him as a coach. 

Your argument is that despite all evidence pointing to a player being worthy of a larger role, if Harbaugh isn't awarding it to them- then there must be a justifiable reason for him doing so that doesn't include a criticism of him as a coach. And naturally it's a reason that we couldn't possibly ever know, and one that won't show up on game film.

Be for real Dan. That's pure nonsense, and if you were a player on the Ravens you wouldn't want that kind of logic applied to you. 

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, Danand said:

1.) I just don't see Harbaughs aversion to play rookies. Just as Ravens 2.) took their time putting Marlon and Jimmy on the field in their rookie season, so does the Bengals have a 3.) tradition keeping their 1. round rookie cornerbacks on their bench for 1-2 years.

Stanley played as a rookie, Lamar, Bozeman, Andrews, Hurst where all contributors, Kenny Young as well and when he got the chance, Orlando Brown became a starter.  In the latter case, the coaching staff sat him for too long, but all the others got their shot in their rookie season. That shows me that the team doesn't mind playing rookies or young players - Tavon Young and Humphrey are other examples.

Now, maybe, just maybe the liability Bowser and Williams could be on the field outweighs their upside. I know this is a personal reference again, but I believe it is a pretty common thing. On our team, we had pass rushers that "read" pass all the time, simply because it was more fun to rush the passer than set the edge - it could be such a thing, but we don't see that problem because it happens during practice. If McPhee stays healthy and take Suggs spot, I don't think that is because Harbaugh hates young players, then it has to be because Bowser and Williams doesn't execute the way they should.

Statement 1 doesn’t align with the logic of 2&3. If the Bengals have a tradition of sitting their corners for 2-3 years, that trend still doesn’t excuse the fact that the coach is benching that player regardless of ability. Similarly if the Ravens took their time putting Marlon and Jimmy in the game in their rookie seasons, that doesn’t pair with the logic that Harbaugh has an aversion to playing rookies.

Granted it makes some sense that we waited to put them both in. For Jimmy we had a stupid scheme that focused on off man and zone coverage, even though our best corner (Jimmy) was a press man beast, so we had to gradually get him used to those stupid schemes. With Marlon, he had a host of talent in front of him so benching a talented veteran that executes for a new guy is a tough decision.

Whereas some of the other personnel decisions are more problematic. While we found ways to incorporate Jimmy and Marlon, we’ve failed to do the same with members of our pass rush. As opposed to deploying them in moments that best would serve their skillset to gather experience- such as with our defensive backs, we minimize their opportunity share thus throttling their development.

This could be blamed on Harbaugh’s coordinators having been uber conservative types like Greg Mattison and Darth Pees. But they’re his coordinators for a reason.

With Martindale, he seems to be a bit more aggressive and modern, so we’ll see what he cooks up with regard to our front 7 members. He seemed much more likely to utilize our edge players in roles suitable to their skill set. Perhaps under his guidance we will play younger talents more to expose them to experience sooner and allow their development to not go stunted.

[Danand]

I am baffled, that you think of yourself to be so much experts, that from a limited number of snaps, you can clearly see that it is an entire coaching staffs pure incompetence, that these players can't be utilized. Stuff like lack of effort in practice, that isn't a thing with you guys? It can't happen and be a reason a player isn't benched, just because you saw him flash a couple of times on the field?

You nitpick 2 examples from Bill Belichick, that magically proves that he can play rookies, while Harbaugh can't and its to a fault, although we already established a couple of rookies and young players are rotational pieces/established players? But again, Harbaugh won't let them see the team and that hinders them? Who exactly are we talking about besides Tim Williams and Tyus bowser? Who are those players that Harbaugh forces on the bench to the detriment of the team and those players development?

Also, don't call my arguments dumb, at least I try with different arguments to provide an insight to why I see it as I see it. Lamp doesn't see the field, and noone really knows why - other than the obvious rookie season injury, but know they can't explain why he can't beat out Dan feeney who struggled. That to me sounds awfully much like us not knowing why Bowser and Williams isn't more relied on.

Regarding that I argue what the quote says below - seriously, go nitpick more and mence words. I am recognizing, that there might be reasons we don't know about, that keep those players off the field. You on the other hand are so determined, that Harbaugh and the coaching staff for some reason hates/can't see how good bowser and Williams is / isn't able to use them. 

Do you have some insight in this regard to what happens on the practice field and in meetings, that we don't know about? 

Quote

"That's not what you've been arguing. You've been arguing that if a young player or rookie isn't playing or receiving time commensurate with displayed talent, that there then hasto be reason for it that includes a deficiency or liability in their game. Instead of Harbaugh being biased against said young players/rookies, especially in circumstances when he can get away with leaning on a passable veteran talent. Don't disavow it now."

And regarding this

Quote

 

Your argument is that despite all evidence pointing to a player being worthy of a larger role, if Harbaugh isn't awarding it to them- then there must be a justifiable reason for him doing so that doesn't include a criticism of him as a coach. And naturally it's a reason that we couldn't possibly ever know, and one that won't show up on game film.

Be for real Dan. That's pure nonsense, and if you were a player on the Ravens you wouldn't want that kind of logic applied to you. 

 

That evidence is all you base your argument on. Tim Williams could lack effort everyday in practice, he could blew assignments, he could be unprepared in meetings, doesn't stay to watch film etc. And that is a perfect ******* argument/explanation to why we don't see him on sundays. That is something I experienced, and I doubt that all NFL players are so dedicated to all parts of the work it takes to be a great NFL player, I actually think several times we see players never amount to anything, because they don't prepare, don't keep their weight etc. How can you actually say that is nonsense?

And yes, I would certainly want that kind of logic applied. That is what i mentioned earlier, that the reason I kept my spot for several years, was because of how I worked. I won on effort, and had enough talent to not be a liability. I was voted team captain and had a starting spot, and a guy more talented than me was 2. on the depth chart because he didn't attend all meetnings, or didn't give it all on special teams, didn't put in the effort when we where behind. YES, I would certainly want that logic applied to me - especially when a team doesn't compromise with that approach. Then you have 11 guys playing hard and for eachother, instead of having 10 players doing that and 1 freelancing.

Quote

Statement 1 doesn’t align with the logic of 2&3.

No it doesn't, what I tried to say is, that Harbaugh plays rookies, some start, some are used in rotation. If anyone thinks Harbaugh and his coaching staff are the only to do this, so does other teams. Here I refered to the Bengals. 

Now, this bothers me. Most of you already recognized that we used rookies and several players both as starters and as rotational players. Yet, you think that the coaching staff are so bad they can't used Bowser and Williams. Why is that you guys are so enamored with those two, that you think that it has to be anything else than what they do, that keep them off the field?

 

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, Danand said:

No it doesn't, what I tried to say is, that Harbaugh plays rookies, some start, some are used in rotation. If anyone thinks Harbaugh and his coaching staff are the only to do this, so does other teams. Here I refered to the Bengals. 

Now, this bothers me. Most of you already recognized that we used rookies and several players both as starters and as rotational players. Yet, you think that the coaching staff are so bad they can't used Bowser and Williams. Why is that you guys are so enamored with those two, that you think that it has to be anything else than what they do, that keep them off the field?

The ones that start generally only start due to positional dearth combined with high draft position vs their play in game/practices. Chuck Clark for example is a player who has (according to media/coaches) performed well in practices and his performance in games has definitely performed over what Tony Jefferson has provided to this point.

The whole point isn’t that Harbaugh is terrible, that has not been stated. The point is that Harbaugh sometimes takes his philosophy a little too far.

Just as he has done with his coaching staff consisting of (generally) his old school connections and their generally outdated philosophies to the chagrin of the team production.

[DreamKid]

48 minutes ago, Danand said:

I am baffled, that you think of yourself to be so much experts, that from a limited number of snaps, you can clearly see that it is an entire coaching staffs pure incompetence, that these players can't be utilized. Stuff like lack of effort in practice, that isn't a thing with you guys? It can't happen and be a reason a player isn't benched, just because you saw him flash a couple of times on the field?

 

What you're saying here is, "You think you're an expert because you're basing things off what you know and see, and aren't factoring in things there's zero evidence of".

53 minutes ago, Danand said:

Who are those players that Harbaugh forces on the bench to the detriment of the team and those players development?

Orlando Brown Jr., Hayden Hurst, Mark Andrews, Chris Moore, Tyus Bowser, Tim Williams, Kenny Young, and Chuck Clark. As I said, all of them should've seen more time. They either had underwhelming veterans in front of them or they have a skill set we could've made better use of.

57 minutes ago, Danand said:

Also, don't call my arguments dumb, at least I try with different arguments to provide an insight to why I see it as I see it.

Your core arguments have essentially been-

1. How do we know there aren't secret reasons explaining why multiple young players are underutilized. There has to be, simply because they aren't being utilized.

and

2. Other teams will sometimes not play young players, so that explains why we won't.

 

 I'm being kind.

1 hour ago, Danand said:

Regarding that I argue what the quote says below - seriously, go nitpick more and mence words. I am recognizing, that there might be reasons we don't know about, that keep those players off the field. You on the other hand are so determined, that Harbaugh and the coaching staff for some reason hates/can't see how good bowser and Williams is / isn't able to use them. 

All I can do is ridicule the argument you present. If you've got a better one I'd love to hear it. You're not recognizing anything, there's no evidence for your position. You're just trying to defend Harbaugh and are reaching for shadows to try and do so.

You keep changing the degree of your argument too. First it was, "something is holding the team back from playing them" "there has to be a reason". Now it's "there might be reasons". You don't have any conviction because you know it's nonsense.

I never said Harbaugh and the staff "hates or can't see how good" Bowser and Williams is. The only point I have argued is that when Harbaugh can avoid leaning on young players, especially those with passable veterans in front of them- he prefers to do so. 

1 hour ago, Danand said:

That evidence is all you base your argument on. Tim Williams could lack effort everyday in practice, he could blew assignments, he could be unprepared in meetings, doesn't stay to watch film etc. And that is a perfect ******* argument/explanation to why we don't see him on sundays. That is something I experienced, and I doubt that all NFL players are so dedicated to all parts of the work it takes to be a great NFL player, I actually think several times we see players never amount to anything, because they don't prepare, don't keep their weight etc. How can you actually say that is nonsense?

What's great is, that evidence you want to write off. It includes coach testimony towards player work ethic. Harbaugh came out and specifically praised Tim Williams work ethic, and during the season called for him to get more playing time. Which is what made it clear that off field issues played into his benching in the later part of the season, not anything football related.

You're whining because we aren't making baseless assumptions against players, in order to better frame questionable personnel decisions from Harbaugh lol.

Oh, I would never define you mentioning that a lack of dedication is a reason for a good number of players failing to reach their potential- as nonsense. That's not anything close to what you originally stated and doubled down on though, back out some more. 

2 hours ago, Danand said:

Now, this bothers me. Most of you already recognized that we used rookies and several players both as starters and as rotational players. Yet, you think that the coaching staff are so bad they can't used Bowser and Williams. Why is that you guys are so enamored with those two, that you think that it has to be anything else than what they do, that keep them off the field?

You keep bringing in Bowser and Williams. Because you don't like them as players. I'm guessing because they don't set the edge like Courtney Upshaw and have the athleticism of slugs. So they're all "Hype & Fluff". Or whatever other "Regular Joe" criticism you have of them. I've mentioned multiple other players, specifically Orlando Brown Jr. Who is the best example of of the point I've been arguing. You don't want to acknowledge that as part of the conversation though because you like him as a player, which goes against your "there must be a reason" nonsense. And because it also establishes a trend that backs up my argument.

Tyus Bowser is a super athlete. He can cover backs and Tight Ends. He has the speed, explosion, motor and bend to rack up coverage pressures and sacks in ways our other EDGE players couldn't. His drops from the LOS are rare, and he has a natural feel for disrupting coverage windows. He has the versatility to play off ball. And as a pure pass rusher- he's got a strong long arm and can win with speed or power.

Tim Williams is the best pass rusher on the team. It's really as simple as that. He has been since he got here.

[DreamKid]

2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

The whole point isn’t that Harbaugh is terrible, that has not been stated. The point is that Harbaugh sometimes takes his philosophy a little too far.

That's what's so funny. It's a criticism that basically only comes into play when we have a deep team full of young players deserving of larger roles. Which certainly isn't a season to season issue, though how I wish it was lol. I don't even have a problem with the base philosophy, as I've stated multiple times to him. It's just the current application of it that's troubling.

No Coach is perfect. I don't know why he's made this issue the hill he wants to die on. As far as coaching issues go, things could be a lot worse.

Edited May 20, 2019 by DreamKid

[wackywabbit]

I'd like to issue a reminder that we had one of the best defenses in the league last year. Top 3 for sure. They were the biggest reason we won 10 games, got the division title, and certainly played well enough in the wild card game for us to advance, if the offense carried its weight. I specifically remember before the Titans game last season this forum was all up in a hissy because Bowser and/or Williams was made inactive. We only got 11 sacks without them.

Now, I'm still a believer that the Williams/Bowser duo can and WILL make their mark on this franchise. But, I'm not going to fault the coaching staff for the their choices in the past because last season was a great success for the defense. And that's the bottom line. 

If we see a fall-off on the field, then I think their approaches can be questioned.

Edited May 20, 2019 by wackywabbit

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Orlando Brown Jr., Hayden Hurst, Mark Andrews, Chris Moore, Tyus Bowser, Tim Williams, Kenny Young, and Chuck Clark. As I said, all of them should've seen more time. They either had underwhelming veterans in front of them or they have a skill set we could've made better use of.

One could even argue Hayden Hurst and Mark Andrews could be added to this list. We preferred sets with Boyle/Williams to ones with Andrews (early in the season) and Hurst (later in the season). Especially given what we saw from Andrews every time he touched the field.

[diamondbull424]

5 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

I'd like to issue a reminder that we had one of the best defenses in the league last year. Top 3 for sure. They were the biggest reason we won 10 games, got the division title, and certainly played well enough in the wild card game for us to advance, if the offense carried its weight. I specifically remember before the Titans game last season this forum was all up in a hissy because Bowser and/or Williams was made inactive. We only got 11 sacks without them.

Now, I'm still a believer that the Williams/Bowser duo can and WILL make their mark on this franchise. But, I'm not going to fault the coaching staff for the their choices in the past because last season was a great success for the defense. And that's the bottom line. 

If we see a fall-off on the field, then I think their approaches can be questioned.

This may be true. But the question still remains, “could the defense have been more successful in sacks and forcing turnovers if we rotated our young pass rushers in more?”

Our defense did well overall but creating turnovers in particular could have been an improvement.

[DreamKid]

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

One could even argue Hayden Hurst and Mark Andrews could be added to this list. We preferred sets with Boyle/Williams to ones with Andrews (early in the season) and Hurst (later in the season). Especially given what we saw from Andrews every time he touched the field.

Well they were on the list .

That was absolutely an issue. They were clearly our best offensive pieces from both a mismatch & compatibility perspective. We left points on the board not using them more. Early and Late in the season. Hopefully that will change this year.

[DreamKid]

9 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

But, I'm not going to fault the coaching staff for the their choices in the past because last season was a great success for the defense.

Sure. Our defense as a whole was great. Does anyone think we had a great pass rush though? Our Sacks and pressures mostly came from scheme and elite coverage. Too often our EDGE players were winded and ineffective. Rotating our younger guys in would've made everyone better, and it would've set us up better for this season. I'm sure now with both Suggs and ZDS gone, our coaches wish they had spread the love a bit to our holdover guys. They'd feel a lot more comfortable knowing Tim & Tyus had a couple hundred extra snaps under their belts.

Just because a kid turns out great, it doesn't mean you can't question some aspects of their parenting. Our defense was great, and I think this season it will be even better.

[Danand]

5 hours ago, DreamKid said:

What you're saying here is, "You think you're an expert because you're basing things off what you know and see, and aren't factoring in things there's zero evidence of".

Orlando Brown Jr., Hayden Hurst, Mark Andrews, Chris Moore, Tyus Bowser, Tim Williams, Kenny Young, and Chuck Clark. As I said, all of them should've seen more time. They either had underwhelming veterans in front of them or they have a skill set we could've made better use of.

Your core arguments have essentially been-

1. How do we know there aren't secret reasons explaining why multiple young players are underutilized. There has to be, simply because they aren't being utilized.

and

2. Other teams will sometimes not play young players, so that explains why we won't.

 

 I'm being kind.

All I can do is ridicule the argument you present. If you've got a better one I'd love to hear it. You're not recognizing anything, there's no evidence for your position. You're just trying to defend Harbaugh and are reaching for shadows to try and do so.

You keep changing the degree of your argument too. First it was, "something is holding the team back from playing them" "there has to be a reason". Now it's "there might be reasons". You don't have any conviction because you know it's nonsense.

I never said Harbaugh and the staff "hates or can't see how good" Bowser and Williams is. The only point I have argued is that when Harbaugh can avoid leaning on young players, especially those with passable veterans in front of them- he prefers to do so. 

What's great is, that evidence you want to write off. It includes coach testimony towards player work ethic. Harbaugh came out and specifically praised Tim Williams work ethic, and during the season called for him to get more playing time. Which is what made it clear that off field issues played into his benching in the later part of the season, not anything football related.

You're whining because we aren't making baseless assumptions against players, in order to better frame questionable personnel decisions from Harbaugh lol.

Oh, I would never define you mentioning that a lack of dedication is a reason for a good number of players failing to reach their potential- as nonsense. That's not anything close to what you originally stated and doubled down on though, back out some more. 

You keep bringing in Bowser and Williams. Because you don't like them as players. I'm guessing because they don't set the edge like Courtney Upshaw and have the athleticism of slugs. So they're all "Hype & Fluff". Or whatever other "Regular Joe" criticism you have of them. I've mentioned multiple other players, specifically Orlando Brown Jr. Who is the best example of of the point I've been arguing. You don't want to acknowledge that as part of the conversation though because you like him as a player, which goes against your "there must be a reason" nonsense. And because it also establishes a trend that backs up my argument.

Tyus Bowser is a super athlete. He can cover backs and Tight Ends. He has the speed, explosion, motor and bend to rack up coverage pressures and sacks in ways our other EDGE players couldn't. His drops from the LOS are rare, and he has a natural feel for disrupting coverage windows. He has the versatility to play off ball. And as a pure pass rusher- he's got a strong long arm and can win with speed or power.

Tim Williams is the best pass rusher on the team. It's really as simple as that. He has been since he got here.

We have one of the deepest rosters. Who are those underwhelming veterans you keep speaking of? Suggs? Mosley, Levine, Jefferson (although he certainly is up and down). Young players still got snaps - some of them significant amount of snaps. Your hole argument is based on your subjective opinion, that the young guys are better players and should have more snaps - an opinion you base on a small sample size. You have nothing backing up your argument other than "what you see and think". 

1. Again - these factors ARE something that should be taken into account. You can't see it, therefore it doesn't exists? I have provided several examples, but you can't recognize other factors than on field play might factor in. If you can't fathom that, then I can't do much more.

2. That is an argument, that backs up my argument, that our coaching staff doesn't have an explicit hatred against rookies and young players. Combined with the fact, that it is a common approach by other teams/coaching staffs - and the fact that our coaching staff actually plays rookies and young players (although you think they don't play them enough), it could help explain that there might/could be a reason why some young talented players doesn't see as many snaps a game as you want.

I am being kind also, and very indulgent and patient

And you can ridicule my argument all you want. You haven't presented a single argument. You will be able to pull up some stats - and with how nice those stats are, you can't explain why Williams and Bowser doesn't see more playing time. This is where someone like me are able to comprehend, that other factors than on field play could be factors.

I am not reaching for shadows, or defending Harbaugh or the coaching staff in general. I am trying to provide a theory/explanation to why certain players doesn't see the field. We established, that we play rookies and young players - some of them are key contributors very early - and this could also explain that despite some fans thinking a player is worthy of more playing time - they don't get it because other factors plays in.

Has to be/might be/could be. You are really really nitpicking. Sorry, I try to use more than 1 word to illustrate, that I don't know for sure why they doesn't see more playing time. I recognize, that I don't know, but I try to provide an explanation. This to me is a pretty valuable trait instead of the "all knowing fan" who knows best and can't recognize that a team might make decisions that doesn't make sense to a fan - like those "draft experts" who calls out teams for being IDIOTS when a team doesn't pick a player high who the "draft experts" think is good - despite these experts knows jack **** about how the player performed in meetings for example. This is applicable to this discussion, where I recognize that factors we don't know about could be an explanation to why talented players is kept on the bench, while you are the "draft expert" who knows just where a player should be taken.

You are most likely going to break that argument down into little pieces, because that is what you do - then we can argue about a word I used that isn't the same I used in another post. Sigh. But it might make you feel clever and I on the opposite is dumb.

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What's great is, that evidence you want to write off. It includes coach testimony towards player work ethic. Harbaugh came out and specifically praised Tim Williams work ethic, and during the season called for him to get more playing time. Which is what made it clear that off field issues played into his benching in the later part of the season, not anything football related

This is EXACTLY what I have argued all along. This is my argument, not yours. Harbaugh praised his work ethic, something changed and Williams didn't see the field - despite his athletic upside. So you recognize that I am right, that factors outside of on-field is the most likely reason certain talented young players doesn't play on sundays.

I constantly say I like Bowsers and Williams potential, you want me to dislike them. You are putting words in my mouth. Why do you bring in Upshaw all of a sudden?

You don't have an argument. Once Brown got the chance he stayed at RT. So he missed a few games - those might actually have helped him learn a bit (am I allowed to use might, or is that too much greyzone for you?) You are projecting stuff onto me, stop that. 

You finish your rabbling by mentioning Bowsers and Williams strenghts. Very impressive, obviously you have it all figured out and should be the DC so you could prioritize how and which players should be used. LOL, LMAO and whatever