Second Round WR - It’s Time

[Isherwood]

10 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I just really wish I understood the WR infatuation of NFL fans.

Did Brady throw to another receiver all game except for Edelman?

AJ Green, Julio Jones, Antonio Brown, Davante Adams, M. Evans, and on and on.  Watched the playoffs.  

Receiver does nothing for me.  If it was up to me, and if I had Aaron Rodgers, round 1 and 2 would be exclusively defense his entire career.  If he can't get it done with Adams, MVS, ESB and modest free agent signings, he's not half as good as people think he is.

That Super Bowl more than ever just proved to me we've gotta dump everything into defense in the draft.  We act like New England has no talent on defense, but I don't think that's true anymore.  McCourty and Gilmore were first round picks.  Shelton and Brown were first round picks.  Van Noy I think was a second.  Flowers I think was a Fourth.  It looks like they're not talented because none of them are having huge seasons because they're all coached just to do their jobs, but I think I was dead wrong saying they're not talented.  Clearly they are, and clearly we aren't, and it's defense that just won, its defense that always wins, and when it isn't defense that wins, it's defense that got them there.

EDGE, DL, DB and maybe even ILB in the first two rounds, and only offense if it's huge value for me.  I'm now firm on that.  We have cap space.  Use it on offense, use draft capital on defense.

I agree with you, though I’d add a caveat that says we need to invest in OL along the way too. Not necessarily with round 1 picks, but 2nd and after should be on the table. TE, WR, and RB, we should basically be able to get it done with what we have. 

[MacReady]

1 minute ago, Isherwood said:

I agree with you, though I’d add a caveat that says we need to invest in OL along the way too. Not necessarily with round 1 picks, but 2nd and after should be on the table. TE, WR, and RB, we should basically be able to get it done with what we have. 

OL I'm alright with.  Not what I want, but I'd be alright with it.  Hoping we get a guard in free agency.

[SSG]

2 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Davante Adams had a 10 rec for 90yd 5 game stretch his rookie year.

This is such a silly argument. You could find a 5 game stretch for every rookie WR ever that is similar to this ...

Of course you can find that sort of stretch for most rookies.  Most rookies weren't a starting WR for the GBP's though.  This is an offense that has churned out high WR production regardless of talent.  Whether it was the high picks in Adams, Nelson, Cobb or guys like Jarrett Boykin who wasn't good enough to play in the NFL once he left Green Bay.  Most contrbuting rookies are their team's 3rd or 4th option at WR not their #2 option.  MVS was first (4 games) or second (4 games) among WRs in offensive snaps in 8 of his 9 starts before he got benched.  

I'm not leary of his production in the first 5 games of his career (like your Adams example), I'm leary of  that terrible stretch when he was getting as many snaps as any WR on the field and not producing with them.

When looking at past WRs production in this offense and how terrible the offense was last year I don't think it's all that silly of a conversation.  People want to assume that just because he's a Packer that he's going to be a star.  I want insurance for just in case that doesn't happen.  When has there ever been such thing as too much talent at WR?

[vegas492]

7 minutes ago, SSG said:

I want insurance for just in case that doesn't happen.  When has there ever been such thing as too much talent at WR?

Cherry picked your post...apologies in advance.

I think GB does have talent at WR.  Too much talent is a good thing.  I'm all for taking a WR high, but not #12.  After that?  Find the value.  It'll be there.

I think you need to draft one almost every year to see who develops.

Much to like about the young WR's.  Much.  And...a little concern.  Most of that, though, is due to where they were drafted and how they were thrust into this offense.

New scheme, new year and those kids have a year under their belts.  

 

[incognito_man]

33 minutes ago, SSG said:

Of course you can find that sort of stretch for most rookies.  Most rookies weren't a starting WR for the GBP's though.  This is an offense that has churned out high WR production regardless of talent.  Whether it was the high picks in Adams, Nelson, Cobb or guys like Jarrett Boykin who wasn't good enough to play in the NFL once he left Green Bay.  Most contrbuting rookies are their team's 3rd or 4th option at WR not their #2 option.  MVS was first (4 games) or second (4 games) among WRs in offensive snaps in 8 of his 9 starts before he got benched.  

I'm not leary of his production in the first 5 games of his career (like your Adams example), I'm leary of  that terrible stretch when he was getting as many snaps as any WR on the field and not producing with them.

When looking at past WRs production in this offense and how terrible the offense was last year I don't think it's all that silly of a conversation.  People want to assume that just because he's a Packer that he's going to be a star.  I want insurance for just in case that doesn't happen.  When has there ever been such thing as too much talent at WR?

So what you're saying is MVS is significantly better than most rookie WRs because he earned starter snaps in GB.

[SSG]

18 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

I just really wish I understood the WR infatuation of NFL fans.

Did Brady throw to another receiver all game except for Edelman?

AJ Green, Julio Jones, Antonio Brown, Davante Adams, M. Evans, and on and on.  Watched the playoffs.  

Receiver does nothing for me.  If it was up to me, and if I had Aaron Rodgers, round 1 and 2 would be exclusively defense his entire career.  If he can't get it done with Adams, MVS, ESB and modest free agent signings, he's not half as good as people think he is.

That Super Bowl more than ever just proved to me we've gotta dump everything into defense in the draft.  We act like New England has no talent on defense, but I don't think that's true anymore.  McCourty and Gilmore were first round picks.  Shelton and Brown were first round picks.  Van Noy I think was a second.  Flowers I think was a Fourth.  It looks like they're not talented because none of them are having huge seasons because they're all coached just to do their jobs, but I think I was dead wrong saying they're not talented.  Clearly they are, and clearly we aren't, and it's defense that just won, its defense that always wins, and when it isn't defense that wins, it's defense that got them there.

EDGE, DL, DB and maybe even ILB in the first two rounds, and only offense if it's huge value for me.  I'm now firm on that.  We have cap space.  Use it on offense, use draft capital on defense.

 

It isn't an obsession over WR talent, it's an obsession over having a good offense somethign we've no longer got.  

If New England is the model, then maybe we should trade Davante Adams for a first round pick and draft a tackle with it.  Then with our first round pick we draft the best available RB.  Just because New England doesn't value WR talent doesn't mean that's the right answer.  We don't have Bill Belichick or Tom Brady.   

Using draft capital to fix the defense and free agency to fix the offense isn't  what New England did though.  New England drafted (or signed undrafted) 8 of their offensive starters.  That defense has 3 first rounders starters on it that they've drafted over the last 8 years (McCourty, Brown and Hightower).  There were 5 starters who were signed as Free Agents or traded for.  The other 3 starters were either 4th round picks or undrafted.  Even alot of their depth was built via trades and unrestricted free agents.  

We've seen this team over the last 4 years spend 80% of our picks in the first 4 rounds on defense with very little improvement.  Meanwhile our offense has rapidly regressed to the point that it doesn't resemble anything that is playoff caliper.  New England who trades a lot more of their picks, used only 53% of their top 4 rounds on defensive picks in those same drafts. 

 

[SSG]

17 hours ago, incognito_man said:

So what you're saying is MVS is significantly better than most rookie WRs because he earned starter snaps in GB.

I don't think he really earned snaps though.  He got on the field because of injuries to Cobb and Allison. More so speaks to the lack of talent we had at WR to start the season than MVS being some sort  star rookie WR.  He beat out a couple low end rookie WR prospects (Yancy, ESB, Moore)  who would have been a lot closer to being practice squad caliber players than contributers in years past.  Take for instance the year prior when we drafted mutiple Moore/ MVS/ ESB caliper of prospects and neither was anything more than practice squad caliber.  I'm not so sure that Kumerow doesn't replicate (or surpass) MVS's production if he doesn't get hurt in TC.  

[SSG]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

Cherry picked your post...apologies in advance.

I think GB does have talent at WR.  Too much talent is a good thing.  I'm all for taking a WR high, but not #12.  After that?  Find the value.  It'll be there.

I think you need to draft one almost every year to see who develops.

Much to like about the young WR's.  Much.  And...a little concern.  Most of that, though, is due to where they were drafted and how they were thrust into this offense.

New scheme, new year and those kids have a year under their belts.  

 

I'm not advocating for taking a WR at 12, the value isn't there in this year's draft class and I view OLB as a much bigger need.  I'm wanting one with one of their next 3 picks though if they find good value.  I don't like the way we've attacked the position over the last 3 years (low end WR prospects or undrafted rookies).  Saying that though, they did try to bring Robinson in last year on a huge deal so they must have viewed the WR positon as needing a lot of improvment.  

[deathstar]

26 minutes ago, SSG said:

I don't think he really earned snaps though.  He got on the field because of injuries to Cobb and Allison. More so speaks to the lack of talent we had at WR to start the season than MVS being some sort  star rookie WR.  He beat out a couple low end rookie WR prospects (Yancy, ESB, Moore,  who would have been a lot closer to being practice squad caliper players than contributers in years past.  Take for instance the year prior when we drafted mutiple Moore/ MVS/ ESB caliper of prospects and neither was anything more than practice squad caliper.  I'm not so sure that Kumerow doesn't replicate (or surpass) MVS's production if he doesn't get hurt in TC.  

I don't have a dog in this hunt but with this logic it doesn't matter at all what MVS did last year. I don't think you can ignore that when evaluating his talent. 

[vegas492]

1 minute ago, SSG said:

I'm not advocating for taking a WR at 12, the value isn't there in this year's draft class and I view OLB as a much bigger need.  I'm wanting one with one of their next 3 picks though if they find good value.  I don't like the way we've attacked the position over the last 3 years (low end WR prospects or undrafted rookies).  Saying that though, they did try to bring Robinson in last year on a huge deal so they must have viewed the WR positon as needing a lot of improvment.  

I agree with much of what you are saying...while still being positive about our young WR's.  I think you are positive about them, too.  As you said...insurance.

The shame in the WR corp is that Nelson and Cobb aged at the same time with no one being "ready" behind them...except for Adams.

Last year I thought that WR corp would be the worst that we've seen in GB in quite some time.  And...it was true.  There were growing pains.  Drafting another one isn't a bad idea, just for the sake of development.  I think you are saying that as well.

[Kepler]

3 minutes ago, deathstar said:

I don't have a dog in this hunt but with this logic it doesn't matter at all what MVS did last year. I don't think you can ignore that when evaluating his talent. 

Exactly. There's nothing MVS could have done last year, short of becoming a late round rookie all pro, to satisfy that line of logic.

[coachbuns]

4 hours ago, SSG said:

 

 

If New England is the model, then maybe we should trade Davante Adams for a first round pick and draft a tackle with it.  Then with our first round pick we draft the best available RB.  Just because New England doesn't value WR talent doesn't mean that's the right answer.  We don't have Bill Belichick or Tom Brady.   

Using draft capital to fix the defense and free agency to fix the offense isn't  what New England did though.  New England drafted (or signed undrafted) 8 of their offensive starters.  That defense has 3 first rounders starters on it that they've drafted over the last 8 years (McCourty, Brown and Hightower).  There were 5 starters who were signed as Free Agents or traded for.  The other 3 starters were either 4th round picks or undrafted.  Even alot of their depth was built via trades and unrestricted free agents.  

We've seen this team over the last 4 years spend 80% of our picks in the first 4 rounds on defense with very little improvement.  Meanwhile our offense has rapidly regressed to the point that it doesn't resemble anything that is playoff caliper.  New England who trades a lot more of their picks, used only 53% of their top 4 rounds on defensive picks in those same drafts. 

 

good work ... informative.

[HighCalebR]

6 hours ago, SSG said:

I don't think he really earned snaps though.  He got on the field because of injuries to Cobb and Allison. More so speaks to the lack of talent we had at WR to start the season than MVS being some sort  star rookie WR.  He beat out a couple low end rookie WR prospects (Yancy, ESB, Moore,  who would have been a lot closer to being practice squad caliper players than contributers in years past.  Take for instance the year prior when we drafted mutiple Moore/ MVS/ ESB caliper of prospects and neither was anything more than practice squad caliper.  I'm not so sure that Kumerow doesn't replicate (or surpass) MVS's production if he doesn't get hurt in TC.  

[MacReady]

So to everyone who thinks the Patriots don't invest in defense and that we invest too much, I just crunched the numbers.

Granted, I know a lot of the Patriots players weren't drafted by them, but the point remains.

If undrafted equals 8, if a first round pick equals 1, and so on...

The average draft position of our players was 4.5 (between a 4th and a 5th round pick)

The average draft position of the Patriots defenders was 4.3.

So they've got more talent on defense than we do.  I used to think the Patriots had nobody on that defense.  Further consideration makes that very wrong.  McCourty has consistently been a top 10 safety.  Gilmore was the best corner in the NFL this year...

So sorry, it doesn't matter where they get their talent on defense.  Fact is they have it, and we need more of it.  

They have more talent on defense and a better defensive coach.  

[spilltray]

10 hours ago, Kepler said:

So disregard MVS's body of work so far because Davante played for an injured Boykin his rookie year? They both saw the field due to injury during their rookie campaigns. Davante had more catches and by far more targets this year than either Cobb or Nelson in 2014. This argument that, for some weird ******* reason, pits Adams against MVS is ridiculous. Is this your basis for predicting MVS will suck? Pretty thin argument considering it has absolutely nothing to do with talent.

I didn't say disregard, but he had more opportunities due to being higher on the pecking order.

I'm sorry, but I don't expect much out of any of last year's rookies. If they are your #2 it's a position that could be improved.