NYRaider Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: Stacking DTs with high draft captial is not the formula to win in the NFL. 1 Passing on players with superstar potential because you have players that have been below average on the roster isn't the formula to win in the NFL. We have $7M tied up in Ellis and Hankins and spent a 5th round pick on Hurst. Spending a 1st on a bluechip talent at the position isn't "stacking DT" our group is below average right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble_Beast Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 hours ago, bucksavage1 said: You guys should really start looking at more film. PJ Hall looking like a potential beast on our line he flashed... and he played hurt, so I could see Hall getting better over time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Realistically Ellis and Hankins might not even be here past next season, Vanderdoes might not even make the roster this year, and we only have like $5M tied up in Hurst/Hall over the next 3 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Ya’ll rely on PFF way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Rich7sena said: Ya’ll rely on PFF way too much. I use to not like them much but after looking at how rigorous their process is and they watch every snap All-22 and factor in so many different variables I started liking them a lot more. Honestly their draft grades are almost always on point. Chris Jones was a Top 10 Prospect for them and he went in the 2nd and tearing up the league. They are usually right. The one thing I don’t like about PFF is their love for the corner position. They think it’s more important than pass rusher. They have Greedy, Baker, and Murphy Top 10 in their mocks which is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OG_C2X Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 2 hours ago, bucksavage1 said: If Murray reaches #4...he's the pick. I said well before the combine he is the best player and a no brainer if he there on the clock. Seems like the Cardinals agree to my point in which you claimed that he didnt deserve to go round 1 Be careful what you say..because you could be hyping up a future 49er vs an Oakland Raider The raiders don't have a QB in the top 50 of their big board. He will in no way be the pick at 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Rich7sena said: Ya’ll rely on PFF way too much. Not really, I just wanted to highlight how poor our interior was last season. Hell if you look at the raw statistics it's easy to see that Q Williams would be a huge upgrade. Hall, Hurst, and Hankins combined for 10 TFL and 4 sacks and our run defense was 30th in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, BayRaider said: I use to not like them much but after looking at how rigorous their process is and they watch every snap All-22 and factor in so many different variables I started liking them a lot more. Honestly their draft grades are almost always on point. Chris Jones was a Top 10 Prospect for them and he went in the 2nd and tearing up the league. They are usually right. The one thing I don’t like about PFF is their love for the corner position. They think it’s more important than pass rusher. They have Greedy, Baker, and Murphy Top 10 in their mocks which is interesting. PFF is a great place to start evaluating a prospect and their grades have little to do with it. They track a diverse set of data and it helps people understand where and how a player thrived or what his role was in a given scheme. That said, PFF grades or data should not be a conclusion as to why a player is good or bad. In my experience, PFF is not great at identifying a player thriving in the NFL in a role not exactly what they played in college or where the player played a limited amount a college. As much as they love to pitch it otherwise, PFF grades are no different than opinions on how good a player played--no player grade is objective even if PFF uses an objective process to come to a number. They still have to make value judgments. I sometimes will watch their videos on YouTube and it's clear they value their numbers over everything. They'll pose a question and instead of playing a clip, they post a spreadsheet. Also, their draft philosophy does not factor into their grades. For instance, they don't grade corners higher than edge rushers because they value corner higher. It just affects how they organize their mock drafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Not really, I just wanted to highlight how poor our interior was last season. Hell if you look at the raw statistics it's easy to see that Q Williams would be a huge upgrade. Hall, Hurst, and Hankins combined for 10 TFL and 4 sacks and our run defense was 30th in the NFL. The interior Dline wasn't poor. I know this because I watched them. I'd describe the interior line play from start to finish as unremarkable, but not incompetent. The main issue I detected against the run was an inability to contain the outside because of poor defensive end and linebacker play. I thought Whitehead, in particular, was completely inept in being aggressive when teams would routinely double the nose tackle. I don't know if it was a coaching issue or Whitehead's lack of ability to read and react but he was consistently slow to the ball. He played a little better toward the end of the year but I hope he's the odd man out if Burfict gets a starting role. I also have some trepidation picking Williams if he falls. Quite simply, the Raiders don't have a need at defensive tackle. Williams is a great player, but I'm typically against drafting over players after a year where the players being drafted over showed a lot of promise. If Williams is there along with Allen and Bosa, I'm probably taking either of the two edge rushers as I like them just as much. Along with the Raiders not having an express need int he interior, quality defensive tackles are a dime a dozen in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rich7sena said: Along with the Raiders not having an express need int he interior, quality defensive tackles are a dime a dozen in the draft. We were at Alabama's pro day and I think Mayock went to dinner with Williams while he was down there. Prospects like Williams don't come around often, he has All-Pro level potential and will be one of the better interior pass rushers in the league. Our DT's made zero impact as pass rushers and weren't stout against the run either. We were literally the worst pass rushing team in the league and had one of the worst run defenses as well. Again, I agree that DT isn't a huge hole for us, the group that we have is serviceable. But elite talent trumps all and I wouldn't pass on an elite blue chip player like Williams to keep a guy like PJ Hall on the field who had 0 sacks and 3 TFL in 13 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 26 minutes ago, NYRaider said: If he falls to us, I just hope we don't mess it up. I'm a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 4 hours ago, NYRaider said: Passing on players with superstar potential because you have players that have been below average on the roster isn't the formula to win in the NFL. We have $7M tied up in Ellis and Hankins and spent a 5th round pick on Hurst. Spending a 1st on a bluechip talent at the position isn't "stacking DT" our group is below average right now. So spending a 2nd round pick, then hitting on a starter in the 5th round (who was a top prospect in 18') and then turning around the next year to only at another DT at #4..If this is not stacking a position than I don't know what is 1 hour ago, NYRaider said: We were at Alabama's pro day and I think Mayock went to dinner with Williams while he was down there. Prospects like Williams don't come around often, he has All-Pro level potential and will be one of the better interior pass rushers in the league. Our DT's made zero impact as pass rushers and weren't stout against the run either. We were literally the worst pass rushing team in the league and had one of the worst run defenses as well. Again, I agree that DT isn't a huge hole for us, the group that we have is serviceable. But elite talent trumps all and I wouldn't pass on an elite blue chip player like Williams to keep a guy like PJ Hall on the field who had 0 sacks and 3 TFL in 13 games. So you just said our DT group was below average...Now they are serviceable? You are all over the place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, bucksavage1 said: So spending a 2nd round pick, then hitting on a starter in the 5th round (who was a top prospect in 18') and then turning around the next year to only at another DT at #4..If this is not stacking a position than I don't know what is So you just said our DT group was below average...Now they are serviceable? You are all over the place 1 Hurst flashed but Hall didn't play well. Again, are you really going to pass up on an elite top 2 prospect because you drafted PJ Hall? Ellis, Hankins, and Vanderdoes all might be gone after this season and we don't really have any resources tied into the position long-term. We could lose 2/5 rotation before the season even starts tbh, Ellis and Vanderdoes aren't locks to even make the team. They were below average last year but should be serviceable if we keep the group as is. We have two decent NT, one rookie that flashed, and one rookie that has potential. We need to improve our pass rush, drafting an edge isn't the only way to do it. A DT led the league in sacks last season and Williams is the first DT to come out that has Aaron Donald like potential. I'd feel much happier with an elite interior player at #4 then drafting a boom or bust guys like Sweat or Burns. If Bosa, Murray, and Allen are off the board who else can we take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Rich7sena said: The interior Dline wasn't poor. I know this because I watched them. I'd describe the interior line play from start to finish as unremarkable, but not incompetent. The main issue I detected against the run was an inability to contain the outside because of poor defensive end and linebacker play. I thought Whitehead, in particular, was completely inept in being aggressive when teams would routinely double the nose tackle. I don't know if it was a coaching issue or Whitehead's lack of ability to read and react but he was consistently slow to the ball. He played a little better toward the end of the year but I hope he's the odd man out if Burfict gets a starting role. I also have some trepidation picking Williams if he falls. Quite simply, the Raiders don't have a need at defensive tackle. Williams is a great player, but I'm typically against drafting over players after a year where the players being drafted over showed a lot of promise. If Williams is there along with Allen and Bosa, I'm probably taking either of the two edge rushers as I like them just as much. Along with the Raiders not having an express need int he interior, quality defensive tackles are a dime a dozen in the draft. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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