Is Rob Gronkowski the GOAT TE?

[Fresh Prince]

Yes

[Bearerofnews]

Give me Gonzo, Gates, Winslow, Sharpe and Mackey over Gronk no question. All much more dynamic receivers than Gronk. I dont value blocking much for TE's.

Gronks stats are favored by probably the most TE friendly system in NFL history. It was brutal watching Gronk run routes and him be so sluggish in and out of cuts. Gronk has made some exceptional catches and plays, but not enough to put him over those guys for me. He was just big and powerful and bullied his way.  Which value wise you cant knock. But skill wise, didnt correlate. I would of loved to see what he does without Brady and NE. 

[Bearerofnews]

I always believe let a person retire for 3 years, than see what the public perception of that player is and it is a more accurate assessment. I think a ton of players are under appreciated while active and overrated while active. Once they retire for several years, people seem to realign their opinions more accurately to how good a player really was. It's hard to argue against Gronk's stats and i am a huge proprietor of stats = how good a player is. But to me for Gronk it just didnt translate the same way.

I'm not going to lie, i cant make a convincing argument against Gronk, but its just what i see and what i value and i didnt think of him nearly as highly as most other do.

[SkippyX]

Rany Moss 15.6 yard per catch career average

• Gronkowski 15.1 yards per catch average.
• Gonzo 11.4
• Gates 12.4
• Sharpe 12.3
• Winslow 12.5
• Mackey 15.8

Gronk was twice the dynamic pass catcher of anyone else you want to mention besides Mackey.

Blocking in a TE is about as important as pass catching if the goal is winning games. Strange what some people value.

[Malik]

I don't see how you don't give it to him. He has the best peaks as well as the best post season play. Would him adding some career yardage and touchdowns to close the gap between Gonzalez and Gates really move him up that much more? Witten is the only receiving TE of his era that was in his ball park as a blocker. 

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, SkippyX said:

In Gronk's 3 injury seasons he had 119 catches 1922 yards and 18 TDs at 16.2 per catch (26 games)

Gonzalez's first 3 years in Atlanta 233 catches 2398 yards and 19 TDs at 10.2 per catch (48 games)

Gonzalez was 33 when he went to Atlanta or 4 years older than Gronk is now. No way he could have done that at 33 like Gonzalez did. Gronk was the beastliest TE ever, Tony had the better career and was pretty beastly himself.

[SkippyX]

A healthy stat compiling career with 1 playoff win vs the most dominant career with 12 playoff wins, 4 Super Bowls and 3 rings...

tough call

Here is their apples to apples first 9 seasons:

• Gonzalez 648 catches  Gronk 521
• Gronk 7861 yards - Gonzalez 7810
• Gronk 79 TDs - Gonzalez 56
• Gronk 15.1 yards per catch - Gonzalez 12.1

Gonzalez with 28 extra games in those 9 years is a joke compared to Gronk.

• If that joke last 8 more years of not winning does it get any better?
• 1-6 in the playoffs with his sub-10 yards per catch.

Gronk had 4 seasons of 1000+ in 9 years

• Gonzo had 4 in 17 years

Gronk had 5 seasons of 10+ TDs in 9 years

• Gonzo had 3 in 17 seasons.

 

Gonzo's best playoff game was 8 catches, 78 yards and a TD

• Gronk has 9 playoff games with more yards than that.

Gronk was literally unstoppable in the second half of LII and many other times in the playoffs.

• Gonzo was the definition of stoppable in the playoffs.

[BleedTheClock]

1 hour ago, Bearerofnews said:

I dont value blocking much for TE's

Well that's just dumb.

[lancerman]

22 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Well that's just dumb.

I can't believe someone actually said that. Without blocking a TE is basically just a bigger slower WR. 

[Herm the Squirm]

It's a compelling argument, Gronk vs Tony G. I could be swayed either way but generally it comes down to whether you value career longevity stats or playoff wins/Super Bowl rings.

If you break down their regular season stats, they basically each had four seasons in which they just absolutely dominated. Their total yards and TDs are pretty close in those years except for 2017 when Gronk had an incredible 17 TDs. Gronk has the rings but Tony continued to produce as a solid TE1 well into his Atlanta days. And lest we forget Tony G. is second ALL TIME in career receptions - and not just for a TE. Literally Jerry Rice is the only person who caught more passes in NFL history than Tony Gonazalez. That has to count for something.

And it's not my favorite argument to make, but look at the QBs each had to play for:

Gronk - Tom Brady
Tony G - Elvis Grbac, Rich Gannon (pre-MVP), Trent Green, Damon Huard, Brodie Croyle, Tyler Thigpen, Matt Ryan

Those Huard/Croyle/Thigpen years were brutal for what should have been the peak of Gonzo's career.

[lancerman]

12 minutes ago, Herm the Squirm said:

It's a compelling argument, Gronk vs Tony G. I could be swayed either way but generally it comes down to whether you value career longevity stats or playoff wins/Super Bowl rings.

If you break down their regular season stats, they basically each had four seasons in which they just absolutely dominated. Their total yards and TDs are pretty close in those years except for 2017 when Gronk had an incredible 17 TDs. Gronk has the rings but Tony continued to produce as a solid TE1 well into his Atlanta days. And lest we forget Tony G. is second ALL TIME in career receptions - and not just for a TE. Literally Jerry Rice is the only person who caught more passes in NFL history than Tony Gonazalez. That has to count for something.

And it's not my favorite argument to make, but look at the QBs each had to play for:

Gronk - Tom Brady
Tony G - Elvis Grbac, Rich Gannon (pre-MVP), Trent Green, Damon Huard, Brodie Croyle, Tyler Thigpen, Matt Ryan

Those Huard/Croyle/Thigpen years were brutal for what should have been the peak of Gonzo's career.

Here's one thing I'll say about this. Brady's stats generally go down when you take away Gronk. 

Whose the best of the QB's Tony G had? I think it's easily Matt Ryan? Okay Tony G's stats generally went down under Ryan and were not at it's height. Also Ryan's best years were this year and his MVP year. Both without Tony G. 

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

Rany Moss 15.6 yard per catch career average

• Gronkowski 15.1 yards per catch average.
• Gonzo 11.4
• Gates 12.4
• Sharpe 12.3
• Winslow 12.5
• Mackey 15.8

Gronk was twice the dynamic pass catcher of anyone else you want to mention besides Mackey.

Blocking in a TE is about as important as pass catching if the goal is winning games. Strange what some people value.

How do yards per catch equate to dynamic? Dynamic as in those guys were constantly making amazing 1 handed catches, boxing out defenders, catching in traffic and clutter, running fluid routes and making great adjustment catches (gronk did as well, not nearly as frequently as them). Gronk was underlayed in route concepts that had him wide open quite a bit and it wasnt because he was a great route runner.

You cant quantify how good TE's consistently are blocking and in most cases TE's are blocking smaller LB's or helping OT's. Or they are pulling based on the run design. How good a TE blocks to me is the most useless attribute on a football field and most football people tend to agree with me. Look at the drafting and FA trends as well as TE contracts based on what skillset is valued.

No one is drafting TE's early for their blocking. TE's make their value in the receiving game. 

[BayRaider]

45 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I can't believe someone actually said that. Without blocking a TE is basically just a bigger slower WR. 

So Kelvin Benjamin is the GOAT TE

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, SkippyX said:

A healthy stat compiling career with 1 playoff win vs the most dominant career with 12 playoff wins, 4 Super Bowls and 3 rings...

tough call

Here is their apples to apples first 9 seasons:

• Gonzalez 648 catches  Gronk 521
• Gronk 7861 yards - Gonzalez 7810
• Gronk 79 TDs - Gonzalez 56
• Gronk 15.1 yards per catch - Gonzalez 12.1

Gonzalez with 28 extra games in those 9 years is a joke compared to Gronk.

• If that joke last 8 more years of not winning does it get any better?
• 1-6 in the playoffs with his sub-10 yards per catch.

Gronk had 4 seasons of 1000+ in 9 years

• Gonzo had 4 in 17 years

Gronk had 5 seasons of 10+ TDs in 9 years

• Gonzo had 3 in 17 seasons.

 

Gonzo's best playoff game was 8 catches, 78 yards and a TD

• Gronk has 9 playoff games with more yards than that.

Gronk was literally unstoppable in the second half of LII and many other times in the playoffs.

• Gonzo was the definition of stoppable in the playoffs.

Yeah well tight ends aren't credited with playoff wins.

Durability is a big part of being a football player.

Gonzalez started 0 of the 16 games his first year so I'm not sure it is fair to treat that like he was a starter.

Tony had fourteen 800 yards seasons, Gronk had ten fewer. Stats can be skewed very easily to favor someone in a case like this. It isn't Gronk's fault (that I know of) that his body broke down more dramatically than Gonzalez's but it did. If I could draft either player for my team knowing the career they had I'd take Gonzalez pretty easily. For one game or one season it may be different but for their career it is easily Tony.

[BleedTheClock]

45 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

How good a TE blocks to me is the most useless attribute on a football field and most football people tend to agree with me.

Dude...I'd love some of the drugs you're smoking. What NFL people don't care about blocking? It just so happens that 90% of collegiate TE's can't block. It's not like it's an undesirable attribute. TJ Hockenson is being projected as a top 10 pick because he can block, not because he's some elite receiving TE. Don't confuse a shortage of a skill set with a depreciation of a skill set.