Elky Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Jakuvious said: I don't think ET's point is that Brady made Gronk. Just that he enabled him statistically. While Gonzalez's QBs were not capable of the same. The Pats getting one and a half or two times as many passing TDs during Gronk's career compared to the Chiefs during Gonzalez's career is going to enable more TDs per game. So Gonzo is better simply because he had inferior QBs? That has literally nothing to do with TE ability. Gronk is at least on par with him in receiving and is LIGHT YEARS better at blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teen Girl Squad Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Best pass catching TE in NFL history? Easily. Best blocking TE in NFL history? He's up there (obviously hard to quantify). To me its not even close. The only thing he doesn't have is longevity but I've always been a peak>longevity guy (even the peak was long enough, not just 1-2 seasons). He's also got the championships and big game performances to back him up. For several years he was up there with the Watts, Donalds etc... as one of the best pure non-QB players in the league, which isn't something I can really say with any other tight ends brought up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Elky said: So Gonzo is better simply because he had inferior QBs? I'm saying that the difference in numbers is expected. If there was some significant difference (there's not) THEN we can declare a winner on this by using stats in this fashion. 2 minutes ago, Elky said: Gronk is at least on par with him in receiving and is LIGHT YEARS better at blocking. You clearly never watched Tony Gonzalez play if you think this on both receiving and - specifically speaking - blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Okay, for some solid comparison numbers here. In the 12 years that Gonzalez was a Chief, the Chiefs threw for 256 passing TDs. That averages out to 21 per season. SBLIII posted that Gonzalez averaged .41 TDs per game. For Gronk's 9 year career as a Pat, the Patriots threw for 296 TDs (I'll be honest, I didn't look up backups here, just Brady and the 4 games he was out, so it may be a few more), which shakes out to 33 passing TDs per season. SBLIII posted that Gronk averaged .69 TDs per game. For percentages, that means Gonzalez caught about 60% as many TDs per game as Gronk. The Kansas City Chiefs, however, threw for about 63% as many TDs per game as the Patriots did. Gonzalez performed incredibly similarly from a TD perspective when you factor opportunity and situation. Of course the guy on elite offenses with an elite QB is going to get more TDs. There are more TDs to go around. And I'm even being nice here and including Gonzalez's rookie year where he was a backup with 2 TDs. Take that year out and he jumps up to .43 TDs per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, ET80 said: I'm saying that the difference in numbers is expected. If there was some significant difference (there's not) THEN we can declare a winner on this by using stats in this fashion. You clearly never watched Tony Gonzalez play if you think this on both receiving and - specifically speaking - blocking. Gonzalez’s numbers got worse after he got Matt Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefer Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, lancerman said: Gonzalez’s numbers got worse after he got Matt Ryan. Well yeah he was 34... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, Chiefer said: Well yeah he was 34... And his numbers across the board on stats instantly decreased and never reached their previous highs the season he first got Ryan. That to me tells me it was more about the system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, lancerman said: And his numbers across the board on stats instantly decreased and never reached their previous highs the season he first got Ryan. That to me tells me it was more about the system Or, again, the fact that he was declining and in his mid-30s. Would you not expect Gronk's numbers to decline 4 years from now, if he played another 8 seasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jakuvious said: Or, again, the fact that he was declining and in his mid-30s. Would you not expect Gronk's numbers to decline 4 years from now, if he played another 8 seasons? I would expect a traditional decline where the numbers dipped each year. Not a situation where he was in this bracket of stats, then for an extended period of time he was in this lower bracket of stats. Gonzalez pretty much stayed at that level the last 6 seasons of his career. It’s alot closer to what happened with Rice for awhile after he left Young. He played for an extended period of time at a somewhat lower level. Then in Rice’s case he finally started to decline at the very end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: Gonzo, Gates and Sharpe all had strong running backs to take away more passing targets from them. From TD, Priest, Larry Johnson, LT. I'm sorry but you completely undercut whatever solid arguments you might have made when you trotted out this line. Gronk played with the likes of Danny Woodhead, Shane Vereen, James White and Dion Lewis. Not to mention all the great slot receivers the Pats had who would take targets from Gronk in the short-to-intermediate passing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, lancerman said: I would expect a traditional decline where the numbers dipped each year. Not a situation where he was in this bracket of stats, then for an extended period of time he was in this lower bracket of stats. Gonzalez pretty much stayed at that level the last 6 seasons of his career. It’s alot closer to what happened with Rice for awhile after he left Young. He played for an extended period of time at a somewhat lower level. Then in Rice’s case he finally started to decline at the very end. Declines are definitely not traditionally steady. Some guys fall off a cliff. Sometimes take several large steps down over a long period of time. Some guys decline steadily. Part of his decline also saw him transition from being a primary target to a secondary target. He was no longer going to be the first guy in the pecking order. He went from being the primary target over mid-tier WRs like Kennison and Bowe to being a secondary target behind a mid-tier WR in White. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Shannon Sharpe said today that Gronk was easily the most dominant player to ever play the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, Starless said: I'm sorry but you completely undercut whatever solid arguments you might have made when you trotted out this line. Gronk played with the likes of Danny Woodhead, Shane Vereen, James White and Dion Lewis. Not to mention all the great slot receivers the Pats had who would take targets from Gronk in the short-to-intermediate passing game. Are you comparing those RBs to LT, TD, Priest and LJ? NE's RBs wete facilitators in the short passing game, which made Gronk their primary deep threat most of the time, which is why he had a high ypc avg. RBs i name, made their teams run the ball alot more frequently. I guess if i really cared about this debate. Id look at pass atts for NE per year with gronk vs run atts and compare to those other TEs. Then i would look at NEs offensive production with Gronk and without. To me Gronk was always just a cog and not the main cog. Those other TEs were the main cog. Maybe its a disservice to NE offensive players outside of Brady. But i tend to give more credit to the system than the players. Does that make me a bad guy, i dont think so. Just the stigma NE has created imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 15 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: Are you comparing those RBs to LT, TD, Priest and LJ? NE's RBs wete facilitators in the short passing game, which made Gronk their primary deep threat most of the time, which is why he had a high ypc avg. RBs i name, made their teams run the ball alot more frequently. You stated that the RBs those other guys played with would take targets away from Gronk. How else was I supposed to read that? Your argument still makes little sense because you say Gronk was just A cog rather than the main cog, but then you say Gronk was the primary deep threat and most targeted receiver on teams that didn't run as often (which, adjusted for era isn't really true, by the way). So which is it? If he wasn't the main cog, how do you account for him having had the kind of production he did when healthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 What was Gonzo's blocking like? Not a dig, just want to know as I was more a casual watcher in his peak and can't remember his blocking skills. This would help my opinion. Currently, I'm wondering if any TE has EVER combined the net receiving abilities and blocking abilities into one package like Rob has Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.