redsoxsuck05 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said: I mean the disproportionate and incredibly slanted element of police violence occurs against the poor, it just happens that black people are among the poorest in most places in this country. Congratulations you've discovered class conflict. I don’t totally agree with this. A fair amount of cops are plain racist and aren’t just picking on poor people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hope- Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 i mean, there are two options here. you believe that the poverty and violence faced by black communities across the US is due to structural factors, or you believe that black people are inherently given to poverty and violence. it's literally one or the other. so if you're denying the structural factors, i guess i have some phrenology textbooks to sell you. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, champ11 said: I wonder if that has anything to do with targeted mass incarceration by the police ........................... (gasp) it does Or the fact that drug offenders with possession of 5 grams of crack are required to serve a MINIMUM 5 year sentence in federal prison, where as offenders with cocaine would have to have 500 grams to receive the same sentence (a 100-1 ratio, this ratio was established in 1986 as part of the "war on drugs", it was recently modified by president Obama to a 18-1 ratio in 2010). Even the laws are racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mesa_Titan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Woooo is this thread a dumpster fire or what?😂 🤦♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animaltested Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, DawgX said: And you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think that's the only reason. I'm against mass incarceration. I think throwing someone in prison for drug possession is absurd. You do know there entire concept of this was largely based on race? A factor in Nixon's war on drugs was to disrupt PoC communities (and young politically motivated groups) as a way to disenfranchise and demobilize them politically. The consequences are still being felt to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 minute ago, redsoxsuck05 said: I don’t totally agree with this. A fair amount of cops are plain racist and aren’t just picking on poor people. Yes but that's not an instructive critique. Racism individually certainly drives actions, implicit biases are rampant in a hierarchical society. But to address that systemic issue you have to address the roots of them, what causes the hierarchy to emerge in this way? What superstructural elements create it? What is the superstructure, what is the base? IMO, the answer to the issue is not to mono focus on these individual incredibly violent acts, though we should address them always, it's to maintain the structural critique, which posits that the entire structural institution of what we call "police" here must be dealt with in some capacity beyond reformism and that the elements of society that create their ability to oppress and cajol must also be reckoned with at the same time. You can, and should, solve both, not just one or the other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_is_the_best Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, -Hope- said: i mean, there are two options here. you believe that the poverty and violence faced by black communities across the US is due to structural factors, or you believe that black people are inherently given to poverty and violence. it's literally one or the other. so if you're denying the structural factors, i guess i have some phrenology textbooks to sell you. Nope. That's a false dichotomy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossburg Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Just now, Mesa_Titan said: Woooo is this thread a dumpster fire or what?😂 🤦♂️ I mean to be fair, this is about as civil a discussion you can possibly have on the matter between online strangers. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Just now, Joe_is_the_best said: Nope. That's a false dichotomy. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hope- Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, Joe_is_the_best said: Nope. That's a false dichotomy. lol it's literally not. if you think people aren't being coerced into cyclical violence and poverty by systemic factors, then the only remaining option is that they're choosing to do so of their own volition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 minute ago, Joe_is_the_best said: Nope. That's a false dichotomy. In what way. Either eugenics are real (spoilers, eugenics are not real and IQ is bull****), or material conditions create these problems. You can't have both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mesa_Titan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Just now, Mossburg said: I mean to be fair, this is about as civil a discussion you can possibly have on the matter between online strangers. I’ve seen like four people get called racist, so probably not.😂 I’m not catching the banhammer, though, so I’m out. ✌️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 minute ago, Mossburg said: I mean to be fair, this is about as civil a discussion you can possibly have on the matter between online strangers. It’s honestly not that bad. Probably because Mesa didn’t show up until now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_is_the_best Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: Why? There can be MANY factors all at once. Yes there is discrimination & racism, but there's also broken families, well-intentioned but unhelpful reforms, cultural (not racial) issues, etc. It's not just 1 thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hope- Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 7 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said: Yes but that's not an instructive critique. Racism individually certainly drives actions, implicit biases are rampant in a hierarchical society. But to address that systemic issue you have to address the roots of them, what causes the hierarchy to emerge in this way? What superstructural elements create it? What is the superstructure, what is the base? IMO, the answer to the issue is not to mono focus on these individual incredibly violent acts, though we should address them always, it's to maintain the structural critique, which posits that the entire structural institution of what we call "police" here must be dealt with in some capacity beyond reformism and that the elements of society that create their ability to oppress and cajol must also be reckoned with at the same time. You can, and should, solve both, not just one or the other. i think that's part of why racial capitalism is a useful framework. when you understand capitalism as inherently racialized, the "race vs class" argument more or less melts away, and it starts to make total sense that, for example, police in the US originated in part as slave catching patrols but also as private armies to crack down on organized labor. the group differentiation was class and race simultaneously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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