Mahomes or Jackson

[Bearerofnews]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Your eyes viewed the same things everyone else saw and drew you to false conclusions. So fine, you’re right, it’s either your eyes or your conclusions that are faulty. Either way, hard to trust what you say you’re seeing. 

Yes, i still believe Chargers are the most talented roster. But they also had insane amount of injuries. Injuries with guys missing games. Or does that only count when someone plays through a supposed hampering injury.

The other stuff, is predictions. Records and outcomes, those are typically guessing games with some logic. Nothing that is relevant here, in the least. Considering alot of my predictions are also coming true.

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I’m not going to try to sell Andy Reid as something less than he is - he’s a great offensive mind, absolutely. And I’m sure you’re much more comfortable citing Matt Moore in his 2.5 games than you are citing Alex Smith, Michael Vick, Kevin Kolb, or Donovan McNabb in 15+ years worth of games (none of which come close to Mahomes in passer rating). But what’s the point of using passer rating (the best, most tangible indicator of performance) if you’re going to pick and choose who to dismiss it with? 

If you think the system Reid is running now in KC is even close to the system he had on the Eagles, you dont follow football closely. It has evolved 10 folds. Not to mention the speed his KC offense has vs Philly offense. You think Reid just collects all these fast smaller WRs to play his elves for Christmas. This is an entirely different offense.

As this offense evolved, a journeyman, avg at best qb like Alex Smith looked like a probowler and even an MVP candidate at some point.

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Surely a QB like, for instance, Phillip Rivers deserves some docked points for playing with an elite RB and best team in the league? So his 25th passer rating in the league ought to look even worse than it actually is? I’m guessing that won’t apply to him, though. 

Rivers has played badly this year. Gordon has missed a majority of the season. A sheer sign of someone with no real talking points, they always divert the topic on hand, to bring up the person's team that they are debating... when that person's team or players weren't even part of the original coversation.

Unlike Mahomes, Rivers has proven he is not reliant on a singular specific system for success. Also if you want to bring up my team, my defense made Mahomes look bad. Like very bad. Thirdly, no one is talking up Rivers right now.  But for some crazy reason people are still talking up Mahomes as if he is the gold standard when he isn't and multiple qbs who arent in qb friendly systems are clearly outplaying him. From Wilson to Cousins to Lamar. 

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”Passer rating is the best, most tangible indicator of QB performance.”

*Patrick Mahomes, injured, posts a better passer rating than Phillip Rivers could in his best seasons*

”Well it’s the system”

And if you’d turn around, you’ll see the goalposts have shifted to the rear of your seats, ladies and gentlemen.....

You mean parameters of measuring changing when variables arent the same? Crazy right. I mean math is math and who cares if its addition, subtraction, division... its math? Not how it works in the real world.

We all know Reid and KC has a very qb friendly system, anyone with half a brain sees that. Mahomes agg% (throws in tight windows) has been the lowest in the league since last year. Higher rate of open targets = higher propensity for success. Some people try really hard to fit a square peg into a circle tray. 

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Yeah, I’m sure he just happened to decline in play once he hurt his ankle...you’re actually trying to say a guy who is injured (he said so, doctors said so, reports said so), in fact isn’t...because you saw him run. I’ll refer you to the beginning: Logan Mankins. Terrell Owens. Hunter Renfrow. Dont’a Hightower (wasn’t referenced before, but he played the SB against Seattle with a torn labrum). 

So was he injured last year in the latter half of the season when his play regressed from the first 10 games of the season?

You named injuries that players who played through them, wouldnt be able to demonstrate that they didnt have discomfort. We are talking about a qb, with "leg" injuries who just had the most rushing yds in his career. Where in that action.... ANYWHERE, do you see as being bothered by injury.

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Even if I were to trust your eyes and ignore your bias (I don’t), it still doesn’t mean jack. Players playing through an injury, even though at times they may seem alright, does not mean they 100% not in any discomfort. 

And how do you know they arent 100% exactly Dr Andrews? I think actions speak louder than articles.

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You should use your eyes to read up on Mahomes’ ankle and knee. 

Nah, saw with my own 2 eyes. He was running fast and smoother than iver ever seen him run (we all saw the damn same thing). What more is there to read on? Legs = mobility.... mobility = best its been = legs are fine.

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And yeah, he wasn’t when we had that talk. Von/Mack>Bosa, at that time. Still sort of don’t think he is. Doesn’t finish the play often enough. 

He was then and he is now. He has clearly outplayed mack and von this year, rather easily to.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Bearerofnews

[SmittyBacall]

12 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Everyone is playing with lingering injuries.

I hate when people say this. That's just not true at all. 

[Soko]

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Yes, i still believe Chargers are the most talented roster. But they also had insane amount of injuries. Injuries with guys missing games. Or does that only count when someone plays through a supposed hampering injury.

The other stuff, is predictions. Records and outcomes, those are typically guessing games with some logic. Nothing that is relevant here, in the least. Considering alot of my predictions are also coming true.

Untrustworthy conclusions. Can’t bring myself to just believe whatever you say.

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

If you think the system Reid is running now in KC is even close to the system he had on the Eagles, you dont follow football closely. It has evolved 10 folds. Not to mention the speed his KC offense has vs Philly offense. You think Reid just collects all these fast smaller WRs to play his elves for Christmas. This is an entirely different offense.

As this offense evolved, a journeyman, avg at best qb like Alex Smith looked like a probowler and even an MVP candidate at some point.

Yeah, the DeSean Jackson/Jeremy Maclin totally doesn’t compare to the recent Chiefs offenses...

And yet Alex Smith still never reaches the floor of Mahomes. Reid would help just about any QB. Doesn’t mean you get to dock that quarterback though. The whole “he’s a system guy until he leaves that system” is so lazy. Nobody’s system is making Mahomes able to make those spectacular throws.

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Rivers has played badly this year. Gordon has missed a majority of the season. A sheer sign of someone with no real talking points, they always divert the topic on hand, to bring up the person's team that they are debating... when that person's team or players weren't even part of the original coversation.

I brought them up to display the cherry-picking. Systems can be used to dock players’ performances, but I guess talent can’t. 

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Unlike Mahomes, Rivers has proven he is not reliant on a singular specific system for success. Also if you want to bring up my team, my defense made Mahomes look bad. Like very bad. Thirdly, no one is talking up Rivers right now.  But for some crazy reason people are still talking up Mahomes as if he is the gold standard when he isn't and multiple qbs who arent in qb friendly systems are clearly outplaying him. From Wilson to Cousins to Lamar. 

Rivers has proven he can’t get to the playoffs on allegedly loaded rosters, though. 

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

You mean parameters of measuring changing when variables arent the same? Crazy right. I mean math is math and who cares if its addition, subtraction, division... its math? Not how it works in the real world.

“Parameters of measuring changing when variable aren’t the same”....

”Parameters of measuring” are numbers, lol. They don’t change. 

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

We all know Reid and KC has a very qb friendly system, anyone with half a brain sees that. Mahomes agg% (throws in tight windows) has been the lowest in the league since last year. Higher rate of open targets = higher propensity for success. Some people try really hard to fit a square peg into a circle tray. 

Lol, breaking news: throwing to open targets is better than throwing to covered targets. 

You know who has high aggressiveness% too? QBs who don’t know how to read coverages and throw balls to covered receivers, like Jeff Driskel, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, and Mason Rudolph. Guys like Drew Brees and Mahomes should start throwing into coverage more often.

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

So was he injured last year in the latter half of the season when his play regressed from the first 10 games of the season?

Not to my knowledge. He re-aggravated his ankle vs Indy and obviously popped his knee in week 7. 

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

You named injuries that players who played through them, wouldnt be able to demonstrate that they didnt have discomfort. We are talking about a qb, with "leg" injuries who just had the most rushing yds in his career. Where in that action.... ANYWHERE, do you see as being bothered by injury. 
 

What? Those players all demonstrated at times that they weren’t injured, when they in fact were. It’s not an uncommon occurrence in this league. 

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

And how do you know they arent 100% exactly Dr Andrews? I think actions speak louder than articles.

Because...they got a well known injury, some of which later requiring surgery? 

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Nah, saw with my own 2 eyes. He was running fast and smoother than iver ever seen him run (we all saw the damn same thing). What more is there to read on? Legs = mobility.... mobility = best its been = legs are fine.

I have to leave it here, boss. The guy has said he’s been playing through injury, reports have said it, coaches/players have said it, but forget all that because you know better! 

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

He was then and he is now. He has clearly outplayed mack and von this year, rather easily to.

Yeah, Von seems to have hit a wall this year. Cam Jordan and Chandler Jones are easily ahead of him this year.

[Chiefer]

Mahomes in 29 games: 

8987 yards, 73 TDs

465 yards, 3 TDs

Total: 9452 yards, 76 TDs

Jackson in 30 games:

4090 yards, 39 TDs

1798 yards, 12 TDs

Total: 5888 yards, 51 TDs

[Kirill]

Mahomes. Running QB's never win the super bowl, and Lamar's only playoff showing to date was all-time bad.

[Kirill]

20 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Mahomes in 29 games: 

8987 yards, 73 TDs

465 yards, 3 TDs

Total: 9452 yards, 76 TDs

Jackson in 30 games:

4090 yards, 39 TDs

1798 yards, 12 TDs

Total: 5888 yards, 51 TDs

Not even close

[Danger]

17 minutes ago, Kirill said:

Not even close

Reallllly not apples to oranges. Mahomes didn't have to play his rookie season, and LaMar Jackson was considered to be a more long term project, he was thrown into the fire before he was ready. 

All that said. I'm still taking Mahomes. 

[Chiefer]

1 hour ago, Kirill said:

Not even close

All my stats are from pro-reference? So I’d assume they’re pretty close to being accurate

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, Danger said:

Reallllly not apples to oranges. Mahomes didn't have to play his rookie season, and LaMar Jackson was considered to be a more long term project, he was thrown into the fire before he was ready. 

All that said. I'm still taking Mahomes. 

I mean, so was Mahomes. Mahomes only sat 6 games more than Jackson.

[Jakuvious]

2 hours ago, Chiefer said:

Mahomes in 29 games: 

8987 yards, 73 TDs

465 yards, 3 TDs

Total: 9452 yards, 76 TDs

Jackson in 30 games:

4090 yards, 39 TDs

1798 yards, 12 TDs

Total: 5888 yards, 51 TDs

You should be using starts, not games played. You're punishing Jackson A LOT for the 9 games he played a total of like 70 snaps in. He's actually played about 22 games worth of football in the NFL.

[Danger]

20 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

I mean, so was Mahomes. Mahomes only sat 6 games more than Jackson.

The stats comparison is shown for 30 games in Jackson's career...... do you even read? And that full off season was absolutely huge. Mahomes only played the one game at the end of his rookie year and he looked like a Rookie should.

[Jakuvious]

2 hours ago, Danger said:

The stats comparison is shown for 30 games in Jackson's career...... do you even read? And that full off season was absolutely huge. Mahomes only played the one game at the end of his rookie year and he looked like a Rookie should.

Yes, and if you can as well, you'll see that I commented that it's actually about 22 games worth of stats for Jackson. They both sat most of their rookie years. Jackson was behind Flacco for 9 games. Mahomes behind Smith for 15. And the rest for each came after a second full offseason. Unless you're arguing that Jackson being used as a gadget player week one kept him from getting the time he needed to develop.

And no, Mahomes looked excellent that first game. It took like 3 plays for him to show the talent that he was. 8+ YPA, 62% completion, game winning drive against an elite defense when all of KC's top talent was riding the bench. QB rating looked eh because we rushed for TDs instead of threw in the red zone.

You can also discuss without being pretentious about it. Comments like "Do you read?" accomplish nothing.

[Edge]

It's not a difficult decision for me. First of all both QBs are absolutely great in what they are doing, but i just have to ask myself one simple question to find an answer.

Could Lamar play through the same or a similar leg injury as Mahomes did without a big dropoff in his performance?

I doubt that, so i'll take Mahomes.

[ET80]

Mahomes. Jackson is really close though.

Ultimately, I'm happy with my guy.

[bmorecareful]

Just the fact that this is even up for debate is gratifying given how far Lamar has come and how many detractors he had coming into thIs season and the draft last year... National Media is literally questioning whether he is having the greatest single season ever for a QB in NFL history... AT 22 years old... Look I’m a Ravens fan so who I’m going with goes without saying...  I just feel like the upside for Jackson is superior to that of mahomes... The results from the work on his throwing in one offseason has surpassed anything thought to be possible for him to be able to reach over his entire career... Now imagine him with another offseason of growth or the ravens getting him a bonafide number 1 receiver like say a AJ Green this offseason to go along with a finally fully healthy Hollywood brown... People fail to mention how going into this season it was said we had the worse receiving corps in all of football... While no disrespect to Mahomes... the overall talent on the chiefs offense has been viewed as far superior to that of the ravens... Lamar has put up these numbers with cast away slot receivers an injured rookie and an second year pass catching TE... Andrews is an excellent player but he is no Travis Kelce... and while Greg Roman is a very good coordinator... he ain’t no Andy Reid... And before we talk about the run game or O-line never forget when Lamar took over in week 11 last year we had the 31st rushing attack with 4 of 5 O-line starters in place...