Rich7sena Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 1 hour ago, NightTrainLane said: James is a 6'3 211. He played SS in 2 high a lot for FSU but also played in the box some as most safeties that hit do. I look at his game coming out of college as what we hope Obi develops into now. After looking him pretty close today and yesterday I'm not sure why some have him dropping toward the end of the 1st. He is a top 12 talent and a steal if gotten anywhere past that. These QB needing teams can really affect the draft haha. He's a safety and not nearly as polished as Jamal Adams or as play-making as Malik Hooker. I believe it will take at least one full season to get return on investment on a player like him. Quote So with all this said, is Fitz's value at FS to us better than Vea's value on the interior or Smith's value at WLB or Edmunds value at MLB. It's hard to say. I would say there are a few things to consider here. First, most agree that defensive lineman are more valuable assets than safeties or linebackers. Also, the Raiders have routinely been near the bottom of the league in sacks for the past 2 straight seasons. If we're to assess the talents of James, Fitzpatrick, Vea, Edmunds, and Smith as being near equal, then I'd say Vea, being a defensive lineman, is the most valuable. Hurst and Ward both deserve to be the conversation at 10th overall, as well. Still, trading back remains the most attractive option for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazer026 Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 The more I think about it, the more I want an OT. If we could trade down and land Mike Mcglinchey I would be thrilled. I think Penn is about done, don't want to be looking for 2 OTs next year. I guess Sharpe could potentially fill one of the spots, not completely sold on him yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share Posted March 24, 2018 9 minutes ago, Rich7sena said: He's a safety and not nearly as polished as Jamal Adams or as play-making as Malik Hooker. I believe it will take at least one full season to get return on investment on a player like him. I would say there are a few things to consider here. First, most agree that defensive lineman are more valuable assets than safeties or linebackers. Also, the Raiders have routinely been near the bottom of the league in sacks for the past 2 straight seasons. If we're to assess the talents of James, Fitzpatrick, Vea, Edmunds, and Smith as being near equal, then I'd say Vea, being a defensive lineman, is the most valuable. Hurst and Ward both deserve to be the conversation at 10th overall, as well. Still, trading back remains the most attractive option for me. Yeah, I was vague on the Obi and James comp. I think James is a safety as well. I was referring to his tackling, football IQ, ball skills and agility when saying that is what we want from Obi. I feel like James is a little below those guys in the areas you described as well but I don't think it's gonna be as steep a learning curve, if that is what you meant, in year one for him as you say if he is used collectedly. As always it depends the situation he is put in. About the value/Vea part. I agree but because of what we have and could develop at the other positions. Not necessarily because of the value the league puts on positions groups. Hurst and Ward are right under these guys for me and I'm not making a stink if they are the choice. I also agree that a trade down is really attractive this year because of the depth in the 2nd - 4th rds in our main positions of need (DT, OT, MLB, WR, RB, CB). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, NightTrainLane said: Yeah, I was vague on the Obi and James comp. I think James is a safety as well. I was referring to his tackling, football IQ, ball skills and agility when saying that is what we want from Obi. I feel like James is a little below those guys in the areas you described as well but I don't think it's gonna be as steep a learning curve, if that is what you meant, in year one for him as you say if he is used collectedly. As always it depends the situation he is put in. About the value/Vea part. I agree but because of what we have and could develop at the other positions. Not necessarily because of the value the league puts on positions groups. Hurst and Ward are right under these guys for me and I'm not making a stink if they are the choice. I also agree that a trade down is really attractive this year because of the depth in the 2nd - 4th rds in our main positions of need (DT, OT, MLB, WR, RB, CB). I wrote "he's a safety" to point out he doesn't play a premium position, which thus affects his value for teams in the draft. I have James pegged as a WLB in the NFL. I also don't think there's a gulf of difference between Obi and James. Obi was an amazing tackler, but not a hard hitter. James can sometimes get overaggressive in his pursuit and he isn't as polished a form tackler as Obi. What James does offer over Obi -- and which is why I'd play him at linebacker -- is his ability to engage and shed blockers. James also has the added intrigue of being pretty proficient as an pass rusher even when he gets picked up by a blocker. Conversely, I like Obi in deep coverage better. Vea and Ward are the only players I'd seriously consider taking at 10 above trading out if they're there. I think there will be a market for either James or Fitzpatrick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mct288 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Blazer026 said: The more I think about it, the more I want an OT. If we could trade down and land Mike Mcglinchey I would be thrilled. I think Penn is about done, don't want to be looking for 2 OTs next year. I guess Sharpe could potentially fill one of the spots, not completely sold on him yet. Agreed. I honestly think it is the biggest need this team has. RT is a huge unknown. We think Sharpe or Kirkland can maybe do it, but I'm not comfortable with "thinking maybe." Giacomini is the flimsiest of insurance possible. Our LT is a 300 lb 34 year old coming off injury. On top of it all, OT is an important position that is extremely hard to fill with quality. I like to see personnel moves play out a bit before I get nervous about them, but if there is not an OT drafted on either Thursday or Friday (preferably early Friday) of draft weekend, I will become nervous. Quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, mct288 said: Agreed. I honestly think it is the biggest need this team has. RT is a huge unknown. We think Sharpe or Kirkland can maybe do it, but I'm not comfortable with "thinking maybe." Giacomini is the flimsiest of insurance possible. Our LT is a 300 lb 34 year old coming off injury. On top of it all, OT is an important position that is extremely hard to fill with quality. I like to see personnel moves play out a bit before I get nervous about them, but if there is not an OT drafted on either Thursday or Friday (preferably early Friday) of draft weekend, I will become nervous. Quick. Tackle is definitely one of the positions with the lowest floor and ceiling considering who the projected starters are and depth. With free agency going how it has gone, I expect a tackle being selected before the end of day 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roi34 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 If you want Dline makeover Trade down.. Grab Harold for edge rush Then take Harrison phillips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted March 25, 2018 Author Share Posted March 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Rich7sena said: I wrote "he's a safety" to point out he doesn't play a premium position, which thus affects his value for teams in the draft. I have James pegged as a WLB in the NFL. I also don't think there's a gulf of difference between Obi and James. Obi was an amazing tackler, but not a hard hitter. James can sometimes get overaggressive in his pursuit and he isn't as polished a form tackler as Obi. What James does offer over Obi -- and which is why I'd play him at linebacker -- is his ability to engage and shed blockers. James also has the added intrigue of being pretty proficient as an pass rusher even when he gets picked up by a blocker. Conversely, I like Obi in deep coverage better. Vea and Ward are the only players I'd seriously consider taking at 10 above trading out if they're there. I think there will be a market for either James or Fitzpatrick. I don't really put James as a WLB til I see the team he is on. He has some skills that make him a fit to convert but that doesn't mean it's his best position. For us I see the argument because of the things you said plus our depth at the position. I get where you're going when talking about their tackling but Obi wasn't the best tackler either IMO if we are talking about form. Too often he would grab high and be driven back. James lunges with the shoulder like you said and doesn't wrap AT TIMES. They both have the same issue, a high center of gravity compared to the people they are taking on most times. And both handled it differently. I think both guys can be coached up more in tackling at the next level but it isn't a huge knock for me on either one. I agree on Vea being a top option over a trade down but change my mind all the time so I'd have to see the value we're getting back. All I can say now is I like the players mentioned(I have more to look at with Ward so still on the fence) and I want as many top 100 picks as possible. Asking me right this minute I'd say Vea tradedown Edmonds (if we get bowman back it changes) Fitz Ward/Smith Hurst James(I like his talent more than Hurst but our need moved Hurst up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 The pass rush is discussed as a weak point in this forum a lot but I believe the issue has been coaching. Can we get better? Yes. Do we need to sacrifice other areas of weakness? I do not think so. With KNJ we ranked dead last in sacks relative to the final rankings at the end of the year. With Pagano we would have ranked 4th. The counter argument I see a lot is that we got to play NYG (3) and Denver (5) at the end of the year but KNJ also got Denver (3) and NYJ (4) in the beginning. So if I throw out those four games the rankings would be last with KNJ (6 in 8 games) and 20th (9 in 4 games) with Pagano. The rankings would be better but I threw out the best games but even with the best games KNJ's time here would still be last. Even Ward looked like a potential player under Pagano. If the value is there then take the edge player but if not BPA is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 9 hours ago, NightTrainLane said: Asking me right this minute I'd say Vea tradedown Edmonds (if we get bowman back it changes) Fitz Ward/Smith Hurst James(I like his talent more than Hurst but our need moved Hurst up) I'm conflicted between picking Vea or Ward at 10 and a trade down. I think both players are surefire starters for a defense for 10 years. I probably have Ward ahead of Vea because he's rarer. I'd still be inclined to take Edmunds even if Bowman is coming back. I think his ideal position is outside linebacker -- particularly on the strongside. In base, it would be Edmunds - Bowman - Whitehead and in nickel I'd just take out Bowman for a defensive back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted March 25, 2018 Author Share Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Rich7sena said: I'm conflicted between picking Vea or Ward at 10 and a trade down. I think both players are surefire starters for a defense for 10 years. I probably have Ward ahead of Vea because he's rarer. I'd still be inclined to take Edmunds even if Bowman is coming back. I think his ideal position is outside linebacker -- particularly on the strongside. In base, it would be Edmunds - Bowman - Whitehead and in nickel I'd just take out Bowman for a defensive back. I meant if Bowman was resigned it would change my order as ILB would be a lesser need. But not by much. I still like he a lot and Bowman being on the team would stop me from taking him. I'd just value Ward alittle higher. I still want to watch a few more games of Ward tho to be sure. I have a few questions about his tackling and aggressiveness. Not that it would take him off my board. It just might affect where he is on it. I would like Edmund in the middle of my defense but I see the argument for SLB. People want him at SLB because he is 6'5 but I think he could be an all pro at either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 3 hours ago, NightTrainLane said: I meant if Bowman was resigned it would change my order as ILB would be a lesser need. But not by much. I still like he a lot and Bowman being on the team would stop me from taking him. I'd just value Ward alittle higher. I still want to watch a few more games of Ward tho to be sure. I have a few questions about his tackling and aggressiveness. Not that it would take him off my board. It just might affect where he is on it. I consider the bolded strengths for Ward. I've got some GIFs I'll post later that illustrate this. I actually think he might also be the best deep safety prospect in this draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidersAreOne Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 It's sad to say, but I think Denzel Ward falling to us won't happen. He is one of my favorite prospects in the entire draft now. His speed, technique and ball skills is exactly what this secondary needs. Conley, Ward and Melvin would honestly be a very good CB corp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted March 25, 2018 Author Share Posted March 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Rich7sena said: I consider the bolded strengths for Ward. I've got some GIFs I'll post later that illustrate this. I actually think he might also be the best deep safety prospect in this draft. Yeah please do. I watched two highlight clips and 2 games a few weeks back and that was something I came away with but that is a small sample size for sure. Saying Ward could be the best deep safety prospect in a draft with Fitz, and lesser talent guys that are good in the area like Bates and Reid is a statement. I didn't think he played there at all. What backs that up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted March 25, 2018 Author Share Posted March 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said: It's sad to say, but I think Denzel Ward falling to us won't happen. He is one of my favorite prospects in the entire draft now. His speed, technique and ball skills is exactly what this secondary needs. Conley, Ward and Melvin would honestly be a very good CB corp. I love the idea of reuniting Conley and Ward. I don't even know what effect it would have for sure really. Just one of those irrational things fans fall into haha But seriously, If Ward can translate what I've watched plus all the things I'm reading about him I'd love to add him too. Man, I like that more than likely we will have a choice between some really special defensive players unless like no QBs go in the top 10 haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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