BayRaider Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: Pauly Howard on Vsin Vegas XM Radio just said he won't go to a game if Carr is the QB in Vegas. Wont watch 5 yard passes and a QB who throws the ball into the dirt at the 1st sign of pressure I’ll still go to games and will support any decision Mayock/Gruden make, they’ve both been great. But he certainly has a very valid point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 19 Advanced issues found ▲ 6 19 Advanced issues found ▲ 6 42 minutes ago, Jakuvious said: I think both the offense and the QB are conservative leaning, and that combines to make it even moreso. Carr because I think that's his tendency. I don't think he's Alex Smith bad, but I think he's absolutely the kind of guy who's number 1 priority is not throwing picks and not getting sacked. The offense just because that's the talent that is there, is a run first, short pass second, kind of offensive structure. I think a lot of QBs would actually have produced similarly this year because that's what the talent on the roster is geared towards. I don't think it's an add a QB and then the offense is great kind of situation. I think throwing someone like Brady in, for instance, might improve things a little, but it would still be a very short pass geared offense. I think Brady would arrive and see an offense similar to what he had last year. Trade an upgrade at TE for a much worse defense. Adding a Rivers or Winston or something would give you a guy that would try to chuck it deep, but would just result in a lot of INTs because no one is there to make those plays. I think a more aggressive QB carries a greater increase in negative plays, than in big plays. I don't think Carr is some great franchise QB, but I do think he is getting scapegoated for some issues inherent to the team, not just the QB. I don't care if you add Aaron Rodgers, you're not dropping bombs to Hunter Renfrow and Keelan Doss. You're not taking an aggressive approach on 3rd and 15 because of how much you trust Foster Moreau and Zay Jones. I do think improvements can be made over Carr (though not cheaply or easily), but if you don't improve at WR you're not getting a high end aggressive offense. If you don't improve on D you're not winning a ton of games. It's just easier to point to one guy. The roster is not up to par to compete for the AFC west and the fans want to remove the qb to make it even worse. Once AB left, it was a short pass move the chains offense. Waller is excellent, but if you double cover him, who do you trust? 4 Advanced issues found ▲ 2 29 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: No. He’s saying that offense is built to be conservative. You can keep throwing this stuff out there, it’s real easy to do out-of-pocket. But your misconstrued view of the Raiders talent, even if true, doesn’t disprove the point others were trying to make - it’s an offense geared towards short and conservative. Alex Smith being conservative in an Andy Reid offense with Kelce and Hill is one thing. Derek Carr being conservative with a banged up Tyrell Williams and Hunter Renfrow is another. See, you and Jakuvious are both saying it in NFL Gen. You have no bias toward or against Carr. I've been banging my head on the table the last 6 months saying these things and no one will listen. Instead I'm called Darren Carr and a homer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordyTheGoffer Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 hour ago, BayRaider said: What here is inaccurate? “In a word, Moreau’s rookie season was efficient. He hauled in 91.3% of his targets (21 of 23), including five scores, and he didn’t drop a single pass on the year. That’s precisely the kind of production you love to see from your No. 2 tight end. He was also PFFs highest graded Rookie TE, above Hockenson.” Im not dead against you or your comment dude. I like FM as a player in the future. Its not uncommon for rookie TE's to appear on an upward curve in year 1 because they often play secondary roles and secondary role guys (who nobody are focusing on) make great red zone threats. However TE's usually take 3+ years to reach full potential given the complexity of the position and this includes Hock too. I just feel that your over qualifying the O and your doing it by counting on slowly emerging rookies who are effectively still learning the trade and you seem to be ignoring the fact that Williams was hobbled for the most of the year and the fact that the D can over focus on better players when there are not enough healthy quality players on the field to stretch overage. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 26 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Which I have never disputed. But this isn’t the Chiefs offense. It’s not even the Vikings, the Niners, or the Chargers offense. Carr is a conservative QB. The Raiders are built to be a running, conservative, move-the-sticks offense. Both of those statements can be true, but you’re too busy conflating what “people” are saying with what’s actually being said right in front of you. EDIT: And yeah, it is it’s own thing. Carr being conservative in a depthless offense is different than Smith doing it in a loaded offense with the best offensive mind in the league (or amongst the best). There's a difference between being conservative and then constantly throwing short of the sticks on 3rd down. Like 3 and 7, Carr immediately checks down to the running back without routes being developed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Just now, bucksavage1 said: There's a difference between being conservative and then constantly throwing short of the sticks on 3rd down. Like 3 and 7, Carr immediately checks down to the running back without routes being developed It's posts like this that will make these veteran posters not respond to you. This is a tired narrative that has already been addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, GordyTheGoffer said: Im not dead against you or your comment dude. I like FM as a player in the future. Its not uncommon for rookie TE's to appear on an upward curve in year 1 because they often play secondary roles and secondary role guys (who nobody are focusing on) make great red zone threats. However TE's usually take 3+ years to reach full potential given the complexity of the position and this includes Hock too. I just feel that your over qualifying the O and your doing it by counting on slowly emerging rookies who are effectively still learning the trade and you seem to be ignoring the fact that Williams was hobbled for the most of the year and the fact that the D can over focus on better players when there are not enough healthy quality players on the field to stretch overage. If I’m over qualifying the O, which I don’t I personally am, you have not seen how much the ones supporting Carr have “downgraded the O” to support their argument over the years. The excuses made for him have been over-the-top ridiculous. When something gets fixed, they nitpick some other tiny thing, it’s beyond frustrating. 2019 was a make or break year for Carr. Considering the AB fiasco, he may get another make or break year, but I say it’s only a 50% chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordyTheGoffer Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Fair enough dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: See, you and Jakuvious are both saying it in NFL Gen. You have no bias toward or against Carr. I've been banging my head on the table the last 6 months saying these things and no one will listen. Instead I'm called Darren Carr and a homer. Yeah, I don’t hate Carr. I think he’s a decent QB, but like most other decent QBs, he’s going to play with what you give him. If you give him middling weapons, he’s not going to look good. Carr won’t uplift the talent around him. But if you give him a cast, I think he could be someone you can win with. Some people will be okay with that, others would rather search for Patrick Mahomes Or Deshaun Watson until they find him. There’s no wrong answer. And I’m not disagreeing that he’s got issues as a starting quarterback. If I’m a Raiders fan, I’m not dead set against moving on from him. I just reject the idea that this Raiders offense is some sort of all-NFL squad that Carr held back from stardom. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: There's a difference between being conservative and then constantly throwing short of the sticks on 3rd down. Like 3 and 7, Carr immediately checks down to the running back without routes being developed Not denying that that happened. I’m denying that the offense is a stacked unit that apparently is built to be a big-play machine, but couldn’t be, because of Carr. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 4 hours ago, BayRaider said: I’ll still go to games and will support any decision Mayock/Gruden make, they’ve both been great. But he certainly has a very valid point. True same here. He's a new fan, raiders just inherited a Las Vegas fanbase. I can understand his frustration, he said it wouldn't be worth the money, he's a lame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 13 hours ago, BayRaider said: What here is inaccurate? “In a word, Moreau’s rookie season was efficient. He hauled in 91.3% of his targets (21 of 23), including five scores, and he didn’t drop a single pass on the year. That’s precisely the kind of production you love to see from your No. 2 tight end. He was also PFFs highest graded Rookie TE, above Hockenson.” By the way, PFF rated our WR core #31 in the league last year, but I guess you'll just dismiss that as it doesn't fit your narrative. This is what they say about Carr: "If Derek Carr “is what he is,” then he's an above-average quarterback. He is a quarterback who can produce (and has produced) a top-10 season in any given year. Personally, I'd take that over most of the league's quarterback situations any day of the week. Last week, we broke down all 32 teams' quarterback situations by need and gave the Raiders a medium need, meaning they really don't need to be actively looking for a starter. For perspective, 11 teams had a medium or low need. In terms of PFF's wins above replacement (PFF WAR), the Raiders' roster outside the quarterback position generated the 29th most wins, while Carr ranked ninth among signal-callers in WAR in 2019. Put simply, Carr isn't hindering team success; he's helping it." Can't have your cake and eat it, for the record I'm not a big fan of PFF but you should be consistent. Carr did well with a very average group and the OL obviously benefits from him getting the ball out quick by design. He's certainly not elite, but we can do an awful lot worse, lest we forget the Tuisosopo, Walter, Russell, Gradkowski, Fry years 🤨 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 11 hours ago, bucksavage1 said: There's a difference between being conservative and then constantly throwing short of the sticks on 3rd down. Like 3 and 7, Carr immediately checks down to the running back without routes being developed This is a misnomer, every QB of every team checks down when options are limited, in fact the Raiders ranked #7 in the NFL in 2019 in 3rd down conversions and were very efficient given the lack if top end talent. Carr does certainly check down a lot but its a combination if Carr, the receivers he has and the design of the offense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Because unlike Eli, who's last name buys him leverage... Derek's last name garners him regret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamblinMan99 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 He's one of the most, if not the most, overpaid QB in the NFL within the last 10 years. Oakland knew they screwed up the long term contract with Carr. Oakland lost a lot of money and talent in a series of bogus moves in order to try to compensate. Carr actually had his best statistical season in 2019, but still couldn't go 500. I will give him credit that he's much better than his brother was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 11 hours ago, Darbsk said: By the way, PFF rated our WR core #31 in the league last year, but I guess you'll just dismiss that as it doesn't fit your narrative. This is what they say about Carr: "If Derek Carr “is what he is,” then he's an above-average quarterback. He is a quarterback who can produce (and has produced) a top-10 season in any given year. Personally, I'd take that over most of the league's quarterback situations any day of the week. Last week, we broke down all 32 teams' quarterback situations by need and gave the Raiders a medium need, meaning they really don't need to be actively looking for a starter. For perspective, 11 teams had a medium or low need. In terms of PFF's wins above replacement (PFF WAR), the Raiders' roster outside the quarterback position generated the 29th most wins, while Carr ranked ninth among signal-callers in WAR in 2019. Put simply, Carr isn't hindering team success; he's helping it." Can't have your cake and eat it, for the record I'm not a big fan of PFF but you should be consistent. Carr did well with a very average group and the OL obviously benefits from him getting the ball out quick by design. He's certainly not elite, but we can do an awful lot worse, lest we forget the Tuisosopo, Walter, Russell, Gradkowski, Fry years 🤨 PFF only grades box scores. Therefore, our WR core is 31 cause Carr doesn’t get them the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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