Transfers & Rumors: Deadline Drama!

[Dr LBC]

11 minutes ago, PAW said:

They will stop leaking goals with VvD and a better GK.  Their attack is lethal.  I think they are clearly the 2nd best team in England with VvD and a new GK, and right there with City when healthy.

So, you're already admitting that even with those improvements they're still, at best (sorry, but an on-form Chelsea is still better than Liverpool and, much as it pains me to say, as long as they stay healthy Spurs are better too), only the 2nd best team in England.  So that's 1 of the Top 5 spots off the tally.  PSG are better.  Bayern are better.  Barca are better.  Juve are better.  Real Madrid aren't playing like it right now, but I still feel relatively secure calling them a better side when push comes to shove.  And that's leaving aside the likes of Napoli who I'm more inclined to buy into continued consistency from than I am Liverpool right now.

[PAW]

2 minutes ago, The LBC said:

So, you're already admitting that even with those improvements they're still, at best (sorry, but an on-form Chelsea is still better than Liverpool and, much as it pains me to say, as long as they stay healthy Spurs are better too), only the 2nd best team in England.  So that's 1 of the Top 5 spots off the tally.  PSG are better.  Bayern are better.  Barca are better.  Juve are better.  Real Madrid aren't playing like it right now, but I still feel relatively secure calling them a better side when push comes to shove.  And that's leaving aside the likes of Napoli who I'm more inclined to buy into continued consistency from than I am Liverpool right now.

I said they are on par with City with the difference being depth, so when Liverpool can field a full strength squad they are #1 in England/top 5 in the world in my opinion.  If Liverpool is healthy with a competent GK, they can beat anyone in the world now that they have a world class CB.  I would take them over Juventus. 

I hate Liverpool, but watching them play I think a CB like VvD is going to take them to the next level.  Their athleticism and attack is on par with City, Bayern, Barca, PSG, and Real. 

[Dr LBC]

1 minute ago, PAW said:

I said they are on par with City with the difference being depth, so when Liverpool can field a full strength squad they are #1 in England/top 5 in the world in my opinion.  If Liverpool is healthy with a competent GK, they can beat anyone in the world now that they have a world class CB.  I would take them over Juventus. 

I hate Liverpool, but watching them play I think a CB like VvD is going to take them to the next level.  Their athleticism and attack is on par with City, Bayern, Barca, PSG, and Real. 

And I think you're flat out crazy if you think a full strength Liverpool are superior to City.  City's best 11 still pick apart Liverpool's best 11 (even with VVD and a GK that's better than Mignolet or Karius), in large part because City, due to Pep and the way he manages and trains the side, are a far more disciplined and organized side.  But that's really even beyond my point.

Depth matters.  Consistency matters.  Liverpool don't have either.  Therefore, they're not a Top 5 side in the world.  Period.  Those are contributing factors to being considered a top side.  Being able to beat a particular team on a given day does not make the winning side better for anything more than that given day.  Both Burnley and Palace have beaten Chelsea in the last 4 months, that doesn't make them better sides than Chelsea.

I'm not taking anything away from Van Dyke's quality, but if you think one centerback suddenly changes the composure and performance of an entire back line (and for that matter defensive unit as a whole) that a sieve suddenly turns into a fortress, I question how well you actually know the game.  Back lines in particular are often much more about chemistry and complementing one another than they are about pure talent.  We watched for years as City marched in "mega talent" transfer after mega talent transfer to partner Kompany (who, before injuries took their eventual effect on his consistency and performance, you'd be hard pressed to find someone not recognizing him as a world class CB) and none of them formed a back line partnership as effective as Joleon Lescott who was oft-challenged for his spot in the England squad... and England are generally average-at-best.

[Kip Smithers]

Dortmund had Hummels, a better keeper and were still never solid defensively. So having VVD isn’t going make them good.

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, PAW said:

They will stop leaking goals with VvD and a better GK.  Their attack is lethal.  I think they are clearly the 2nd best team in England with VvD and a new GK, and right there with City when healthy.

City have a far better Keeper and they have  Fernandinho who is one of the best DMs around. They’re not on City’s level at all. Liverpool are a slightly lesser version of Napoli

[kempus]

Liverpool are probably around the 4th or 5th team in England. They aren't top 5 in the world. Even if they had De Gea in goal.

[Hunter2_1]

Saying LFC are on par with City is slightly laughable. City are currently murdering every record set.

I think they'll improve at the back with VVD, but it won't stem the flow entirely. I know the commentators say the goals are down to individual mistakes, and that's true to some extent, but it's also systematic. There's a LOT of spaces left with the high pressing/counter pressing regime Klopp uses, and at times, defenders have to step out of the line to fill the space - which then leads to dog legged defensive lines, which are easy to play around. 

They will still leak goals. 

[dotmotion]

22 hours ago, PAW said:

I said they are on par with City with the difference being depth, so when Liverpool can field a full strength squad they are #1 in England/top 5 in the world in my opinion.  If Liverpool is healthy with a competent GK, they can beat anyone in the world now that they have a world class CB.  I would take them over Juventus. 

I hate Liverpool, but watching them play I think a CB like VvD is going to take them to the next level.  Their athleticism and attack is on par with City, Bayern, Barca, PSG, and Real. 

On paper, Liverpool isn't even close to that level. Those squads all have world class players in all positions which is something Liverpool lacks outside of our attack. If you think a midfield of Hendo and Lallana or Can would be able to match up with the European elite, that is extremely optimistic. 

I would say if players like Salah, Mane and Coutinho (if he stays till summer) are on form, we can beat any team in the world. But history shows that even the best players are inconsistent and there isn't enough talent in the rest of the team to make for it. 

[Hunter2_1]

1 hour ago, dotmotion said:

On paper, Liverpool isn't even close to that level. Those squads all have world class players in all positions which is something Liverpool lacks outside of our attack. If you think a midfield of Hendo and Lallana or Can would be able to match up with the European elite, that is extremely optimistic. 

I would say if players like Salah, Mane and Coutinho (if he stays till summer) are on form, we can beat any team in the world. But history shows that even the best players are inconsistent and there isn't enough talent in the rest of the team to make for it. 

You'd score a lot of goals, and they might be enough to beat anyone, but I'd also fancy LFC to concede on any day. If those 3 were in form and versus City, I'd still expect a City victory. The fab 3 (or4) would hardly get the ball, for a start. They would score though, sure.

[UKTexans]

On 01/01/2018 at 9:51 PM, PAW said:

They will stop leaking goals with VvD and a better GK.  Their attack is lethal.  I think they are clearly the 2nd best team in England with VvD and a new GK, and right there with City when healthy.

VVD isn't the ultimate solution. You need a replacement GK, RB and two CMs (if Can leaves) to be competitive. 

City are in a different stratosphere. 

Chelsea and Tottenham are both marginally better.

United have better players.

Not sure where clearly 2nd best comes from. A fully fit Chelsea or Tottenham beats Liverpool. 

[UKTexans]

On 02/01/2018 at 11:08 AM, Hunter2_1 said:

Saying LFC are on par with City is slightly laughable. City are currently murdering every record set.

I think they'll improve at the back with VVD, but it won't stem the flow entirely. I know the commentators say the goals are down to individual mistakes, and that's true to some extent, but it's also systematic. There's a LOT of spaces left with the high pressing/counter pressing regime Klopp uses, and at times, defenders have to step out of the line to fill the space - which then leads to dog legged defensive lines, which are easy to play around. 

They will still leak goals. 

Yeah I think it was Jamie Carragher who argued with Jamie Redknapp. This defence and it's structure isn't going to be solved by 1 CB. 

[dotmotion]

Goretzka backtracking is definitely like the Hayward backtrack. Trying to save face for a bit because he doesn't want Schalke fans to be angry he is leaving for Bayern. Can't wait for his players tribune article. 

[Dr LBC]

9 hours ago, texans_uk said:

Yeah I think it was Jamie Carragher who argued with Jamie Redknapp. This defence and it's structure isn't going to be solved by 1 CB. 

To be fair, a South African penguin could win a debate with Jamie Redknapp.

[AustrianNiner]

22 hours ago, texans_uk said:

VVD isn't the ultimate solution. You need a replacement GK, RB and two CMs (if Can leaves) to be competitive. 

City are in a different stratosphere. 

Chelsea and Tottenham are both marginally better.

United have better players.

Not sure where clearly 2nd best comes from. A fully fit Chelsea or Tottenham beats Liverpool. 

Don't think there is a big difference between Chelsea, ManUtd, Spurs and Liverpool right now which is perfectly reflected in the league table. Only Arsenal fall off a bit imo.

If it wasn't for Pep and City having absolutely awesome players in almost every position this would be one heck of a season. But the way it is it's hard to predict how 2-6 look at the end of the season.

Liverpool for instance are only 3 points worse than in 08/09 which was arguably our best PL season. Our problems are well documented and VvD won't turn everything around but he's a vast improvement on current personnel. After the GK the thing we really need to get right is our midfield, which has been our worst part of team for large parts of the season. With Coutinho and Can most likely to leave and Henderson being quite injury prone and never seeming to get back to form because of his heel problem, this leaves us with only the also quite injury prone Lallana and the 'Ghost' Wijnaldum. Will be interesting to see how we tackle this, a chance for big improvement...or more of the same again. Coutinho is not replaceable, but everyone else pretty much is. Keita coming in is great obviously and Oxlade-Chamberlain has looked really good on the right of that 3 man midfield, but we definitely need more quality there. Players who are composed on the ball and not loose their heads in close games(unlike Can f.i.).

We'll see what happens. Again, I don't see a clear number 2 right now and I'm not sure there will be one at the end of the season. Everything is set to be a pretty close finish, that's why it's also absolutely vital that we keep Coutinho until the end of the season. No doubt he wants to leave for Barca sooner rather than later, but a move now doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone and he's shown that this situations don't influence his performances on the pitch.

[dotmotion]

I would love for Coutinho's transfer to break Neymar's record but the rumoured £100m + £40m add-ons is a great deal for Coutinho if the add ons are reasonable (winning La Liga, winning Champions league). In the end, he wants to leave and we cannot keep him in the reserves for the next four years.  We already keep him for 4 months longer than we anticipated considering he wanted to leave this summer. I know he has time left on his contract but considering the history of Liverpool, I am quite certain someone made him a promise that we would sell him if Real or Barca bids for him. We did this with Meireles saying he would get a salary bump and we did this with Torres. There is no other team than Barcelona that wants him. This will be the second highest transfer fee after the Neymar deal. 

Also why are some Liverpool fans finding it so difficult that Coutinho wants to leave now. We aren't going to win the Champions League. There has been upsets in the past like us in 05 or Chelsea a few years back but both those teams although a step below the elites are still stronger than we are now. At the end of this year, if he leaves, he gets to help Barca win La Liga and get better integrated with the squad.