TAPT Version 70.0 Steve Dowden follows the rules

[Old Guy]

3 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Dennis Rodman wasn't a JAG. Toni Kukoc wasn't a JAG. Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, etc weren't JAGs. They were good productive players that went on to have long and legitimate careers in their own right. Tearing down good role players to prop up Jordan is a staple of the Nike media campaign that is the primary reason so many believe he was untouchable.

Jordan is the most fortunate of all the GOAT candidates in that his front office was able to put legitimate talent around him and his rosters weren't gutted. People talk about Lebron leaving Cleveland and cite super teams, but the best teammate Lebron ever played with in Cleveland round #1 is who? Larry Hughes, zombie Amare? 

As far as Kareem leaving to play with more talent, and playing with stars, he kinda had to. There were 17 teams in the league and all the talent was on like 6 of them. That isn't even getting into the racial **** that Kareem (and to an even greater extent Oscar went through in Milwaukee (and Cincinnati)

Kareem's last year in Milwaukee was also Oscar's last year in Milwaukee. He retired and was a shell of his former self. Cincinnati isn't around anymore, so people remember Oscar with Milwaukee. He played 10 seasons with Cincinnati and only played his 32 to 35 years in Milwaukee. His best year in Milwaukee (first year, it's only fell off predictably) was a 19.4/8.2/5.7 year. A massive cry from 61 to 68 where he averaged 31.1/11.1/9.4. Oscar wasn't a star anymore and Dandridge was a fringe all star. Also, Kareem had to stay for 4 years and wasn't even allowed to play college ball as a freshman.

By what measure is Jordan a better shooter than Lebron? It certainly wasn't 3 point shooting. (Removing 94-96 where the league moved the 3 point line up) Jordan shot over 30% 3 times. Lebron has shot over 30% 18 times (every year except his rookie year). 

We only have Jordan's shooting splits in his last two years with the Bulls in which he shot:

0-3: 59%

3-10: 41.6%

10-16: 45.6%

16-3pt: 49%

3pt: 29.3% *ish, I eyeballed this one, having to take out the moved in 3 point line. 

Lebron meanwhile shot:

0-3: 74.3%

3-10: 42.5%

10-16: 37.5%

16-3pt: 38.8%

3 point: 34.7%

So, no, Jordan isn't really a better shooter than Lebron. He's better from 10-3 point. Lebron is better from 0-10 and from 3.

+++

As far as passing ability. . . Based on what? 

Lebron has:

More assists (9840 vs 5633)

Higher Assist Percentage (36.5% vs 24.9%)

More assists per game (7.4 vs 5.3)

And assisted on a higher percentage of his teams points. 

By what measure is Jordan a passer?

+++

I have no idea where you're getting a better defender from? Defensive impact is almost impossible to be as impactful for Guards. It's the biggest reason that the Top 5 lists are hugely populated by Bigs. Lebron's impact to rim protection alone is more impactful than Jordan's defense and that doesn't take into account that LeBron was also an elite man defender. It also doesn't take into account that he's one of only a handful of guys capable of being an elite defender at every position.

+++

Clutch stats are hard to collect and while Jordan does seem to have an edge, LeBron is also really really good there.

As far as LeBron not dominating a series and willing his team to victory. Have you watched the NBA in the last 20 years. He has the most impressive finals win in NBA history. 

+++

Why the duck wouldn't Tim Duncan be Top 10?

Duncan has 2 MVPs 3 FMVPs, probably was robbed of a few more by not being flashy. arguably the second best defender ever. One of only 2 Stars to win a championship without a second star. Absolutely INSANE longevity. Freakish on/off splits. Incredible playoff resume. Rings galore. About the only thing Duncan lacked was tremendous shot making capability and eye popping scoring efficiency. 

Tim Duncan was an absolute MONSTER

 

You know shooting isn't just about what you do behind the 3-point line. When Jordan was growing up there was no three point line. Therefore, nobody practiced from that distance. Jordan killed teams with his mid-range game. He wasn't a three-point shooter and the game wasn't played that way when he was in the league. Big guys actually knew how to play in the low post. Mid-range jumpers were not frowned upon. Jordan's cross over broke ankles. Ask Byron Russell and Craig Ehlo. 

Jordan shot 10% higher from the foul line than LeBron over his career. Three-point shooting and overall % are a wash. LeBron gets a lot more dunks that is for sure. Under pressure, when the games, series are on the line............. Jordan by a mile. It wasn't too long-ago folks didn't know if LeBron could shoot in clutch situations. He had failed more times than not. This was never in question with Jordan, from his freshman year in college when he nailed a 17 ft jumper to beat Georgetown. 

All-Defensive Team:

MJ - 9 tied for most all time

LeBron - 5 times. 

We are never going to agree on this. I'm guessing you weren't old enough to actually see MJ in his prime. I had a chance to watch them both. Again, go back and read some quotes from the Dream Team of '92 when a scrimmage got heated and Jordan took over against the best players on the planet. Among the best players on the planet, he was on a whole other level, and they knew it and so did MJ. 

Have a great day and for the record, I don't like either of them much. 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

42 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

You know shooting isn't just about what you do behind the 3-point line. When Jordan was growing up there was no three point line. Therefore, nobody practiced from that distance. Jordan killed teams with his mid-range game. He wasn't a three-point shooter and the game wasn't played that way when he was in the league. Big guys actually knew how to play in the low post. Mid-range jumpers were not frowned upon. Jordan's cross over broke ankles. Ask Byron Russell and Craig Ehlo. 

Jordan shot 10% higher from the foul line than LeBron over his career. Three-point shooting and overall % are a wash. LeBron gets a lot more dunks that is for sure. Under pressure, when the games, series are on the line............. Jordan by a mile. It wasn't too long-ago folks didn't know if LeBron could shoot in clutch situations. He had failed more times than not. This was never in question with Jordan, from his freshman year in college when he nailed a 17 ft jumper to beat Georgetown. 

All-Defensive Team:

MJ - 9 tied for most all time

LeBron - 5 times. 

We are never going to agree on this. I'm guessing you weren't old enough to actually see MJ in his prime. I had a chance to watch them both. Again, go back and read some quotes from the Dream Team of '92 when a scrimmage got heated and Jordan took over against the best players on the planet. Among the best players on the planet, he was on a whole other level, and they knew it and so did MJ. 

Have a great day and for the record, I don't like either of them much. 

 

The three point line came into the NBA when Jordan was in highschool. The ABA was using it for a decade before that. 

Giving Jordan a pass on being a poor 3 point shooter because "the game just wasn't played that way" while simultaneously blaming LeBron for not being a midrange shooter is just pure hypocrisy. Lebron playing a smarter, more efficient game is something that plays in his favor, not against him. 

Big guys are plenty capable of playing in the post. Post offense efficiency is roughly the same as it was 30 years ago. The efficiency of other offensive approaches is what killed the post and mid-range game. Better long range shooting, the emergence of the pick and roll and the loosening of the ball handling rules have made posting up less efficient than other alternatives. 

Lebron and Jordan were of extremely similar volume and scoring efficiency. It's close enough that you almost have to look elsewhere to attempt to differentiate between the two. 

As far as clutch performance, every statistical attempt to show LeBron as a clutch choker completely falls apart under any scrutiny. Lebron is the most dominant clutch player of his era just like he's the most dominant overall player of his era.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2447467-nba-playoff-history-clutch-meter-the-top-25-late-game-players-in-recent-memory.amp.html

If the argument wants to be made that Jordan is a better clutch player, fine. But that isn't an argument that covers the MASSIVE gap in longevity that exists. Not even close.

All defensive teams that existed before the days of advanced stats are worthless. We now have all sorts of on-off splits data that shows Jordan was a slight net positive as a defender (which for a guard is a pretty impressive achievement) but his defensive impact is nowhere near as impressive as Lebron's, or God forbid Kareem or even Russell. 

As far as undeniable advantages, LeBron has 18 elite seasons. Jordan has 10. Lebron is a miles better rebounder. 

Lebron has more:

Points

Assists

Rebounds

Wins

Playoff Points

Playoff Rebounds

Playoff Assists

Playoff Wins

[squire12]

[VonKarman]

20 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Brady is the most successful player of all-time, for sure. He's not the greatest talent, whatsoever. There's a distinct difference.

Yeah, he might not be the BOAT, but he is 100% the GOAT.

[Mr Bad Example]

20 minutes ago, VonKarman said:

Yeah, he might not be the BOAT, but he is 100% the GOAT.

I think #2 on most GOAT QB lists is Montana, and he's not the greatest talent either. 

[Old Guy]

17 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

The three point line came into the NBA when Jordan was in highschool. The ABA was using it for a decade before that. 

Giving Jordan a pass on being a poor 3 point shooter because "the game just wasn't played that way" while simultaneously blaming LeBron for not being a midrange shooter is just pure hypocrisy. Lebron playing a smarter, more efficient game is something that plays in his favor, not against him. 

Big guys are plenty capable of playing in the post. Post offense efficiency is roughly the same as it was 30 years ago. The efficiency of other offensive approaches is what killed the post and mid-range game. Better long range shooting, the emergence of the pick and roll and the loosening of the ball handling rules have made posting up less efficient than other alternatives. 

Lebron and Jordan were of extremely similar volume and scoring efficiency. It's close enough that you almost have to look elsewhere to attempt to differentiate between the two. 

As far as clutch performance, every statistical attempt to show LeBron as a clutch choker completely falls apart under any scrutiny. Lebron is the most dominant clutch player of his era just like he's the most dominant overall player of his era.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2447467-nba-playoff-history-clutch-meter-the-top-25-late-game-players-in-recent-memory.amp.html

If the argument wants to be made that Jordan is a better clutch player, fine. But that isn't an argument that covers the MASSIVE gap in longevity that exists. Not even close.

All defensive teams that existed before the days of advanced stats are worthless. We now have all sorts of on-off splits data that shows Jordan was a slight net positive as a defender (which for a guard is a pretty impressive achievement) but his defensive impact is nowhere near as impressive as Lebron's, or God forbid Kareem or even Russell. 

As far as undeniable advantages, LeBron has 18 elite seasons. Jordan has 10. Lebron is a miles better rebounder. 

Lebron has more:

Points

Assists

Rebounds

Wins

Playoff Points

Playoff Rebounds

Playoff Assists

Playoff Wins

I'm Michael's age, it came into effect in his senior year in high school when the NBA started with a 3-point shot. It was not in college during his time at North Caroline. It was not a range anybody shot from. The college game was still played inside out with NO 3-point line during his three years. So, I'm not giving him a pass, I'm stating facts that it wasn't practiced and shooting beyond 17-18 feet was harshly frowned upon. You don't practice something you tend to not do it very well. 

In spite of that, if you take away the two years MJ should not have come back and played for the Wizards, his 3-point shooting percentage is the same as LeBron's. 

The ABA ceased to exist in 1976, when he was in 7th grade. Your history is a bit off on that too. 

The fact you are arguing that big guys fundamentally are playing the post like they did back in the day is laughable. Really laughable. Basketball was played inside out when MJ played. Now it's the complete opposite. You have big guys who don't even go into the paint. You seldom if, ever see a guy post up. They generally back into the post with ball in hand. 

Athletes are better overall nowadays due to the training and diet compared to the Jordan era, no doubt. Jordan was that freak athlete who transcends time. LeBron was dominant, but not nearly as dominant as Jordan in his time. 

When it was winning time, the ball was in Jordan's hands. You cannot say the same about LeBron and if it was, he failed a lot more than he succeeded. 

I'm done picking fly **** out of this pepper. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Old Guy

[AlexGreen#20]

43 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

I'm Michael's age, it came into effect in his senior year in high school when the NBA started with a 3-point shot. It was not in college during his time at North Caroline. It was not a range anybody shot from. The college game was still played inside out with NO 3-point line during his three years. So, I'm not giving him a pass, I'm stating facts that it wasn't practiced and shooting beyond 17-18 feet was harshly frowned upon. You don't practice something you tend to not do it very well. 

In spite of that, if you take away the two years MJ should not have come back and played for the Wizards, his 3-point shooting percentage is the same as LeBron's. 

The ABA ceased to exist in 1976, when he was in 7th grade. Your history is a bit off on that too. 

The fact you are arguing that big guys fundamentally are playing the post like they did back in the day is laughable. Really laughable. Basketball was played inside out when MJ played. Now it's the complete opposite. You have big guys who don't even go into the paint. You seldom if, ever see a guy post up. They generally back into the post with ball in hand. 

Athletes are better overall nowadays due to the training and diet compared to the Jordan era, no doubt. Jordan was that freak athlete who transcends time. LeBron was dominant, but not nearly as dominant as Jordan in his time. 

When it was winning time, the ball was in Jordan's hands. You cannot say the same about LeBron and if it was, he failed a lot more than he succeeded. 

I'm done picking fly **** out of this pepper. 

And in Lebron's age nobody shoots from midrange because it's a stupid *** shot that yields a ridiculously low points per shot unless the person taking it is an unbelievable midrange shooter. It's not practiced because it's fallen out of style. If you want to compare shooting ability that's fine, but crossing out one and not the other is hypocritical.

Removing Jordan's Wizard years just doesn't fly. If you're removing years, the years you remove is 94-95 to 96-97 when the league moved the 3 point line in.

Jordan went from shooting 30.1% from 3 in his first 9 years, to shooting 40.4% from 3 in those 3 years. He then shot 23.8% in his last year with the Bulls, and then went 18.9% and 29.1% in his two years with the Wizards. His 3 point shooting with the Wizards isn't out of character for him. 

You have plenty of big guys who play in the paint. Embid and Jokic have great post games. Those guys attacking smaller guys in the paint is their respective teams approach to combatting small ball lineups. Hell, there's no better example than Brook Lopez. He's got a great post game, but putting up 42% jump hook shots against other team's Centers just isn't an effective way to play basketball anymore. Points per post up hasn't moved much in the last 40 years. But the years where there was the most posting up were the years where you saw the absolutely awful slogging basketball that drove everybody crazy. 

**** man, even your own arguments point to the absolute insane longevity advantage Lebron has. "If you ignore his 14th and 15th season in the league . . ." 

Dude, Lebron led the league in minutes per game in his 14th and 15th season in the league. He went 26/9/7 and then 28/9/8 and made it to the Finals both years. 

What the hell are you talking about that the ball isn't in Lebron's hands when it's winning time? We're two years removed from him averaging 28/11/9 in a championship playoff run. His close out game of the Finals was a 28/14/10 triple double??

The close game in that series was 83-83 with 6.5 minutes left. James then scored 9 points, and assisted on 5 others. Only 5 points in the last segment of a 6 point finals win weren't scored or assisted by him. This is the sort of **** that Jordan stans would never shut up about, but with Lebron it's par for the course. 

GTFO of here the ball isn't in Lebron's hands. That's just ******* stupid. 

As far as Jordan succeeding a lot more than he failed, that's the dumbest argument in American sports. 

Jordan played for 15 seasons in the NBA. He won 6 championships. There are 9 years that Jordan didn't win a ring. Even if you want to be hypocritical and argue that the 14th and 15th seasons shouldn't count because he wasn't with the Bulls, that's still 7 years where he didn't win a championship. Jordan did not succeed more times than he failed. To say otherwise is to blatantly ignore evidence. 

Crafting an argument that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT involves reaching the conclusion and then backing your way into the criteria that you want. That criteria pretty much has to be, ignoring everything that happened prior to 1979, HUGE weight placed on high volume/high efficiency scoring, and post season team success, and zero weight placed on longevity, defensive impact metrics, rebounding, roster examinations, or analysis of how rapid expansion watered down teams before European talent started making it's way over.

+++

 More detailed and complete examinations of this topic tell us a lot of things. One of my favorite being Kareem's years with the Bucks:

In the 1972 Western Conference finals

Kareem put up 34/18/5

Oscar put up 9/6/5

The Lakers won in 6 and rolled a middling Knicks team that the Bucks would have crushed.

In the 1974 finals

Kareem put up 33/12/5

Oscar put up 12/4/8 including a game 7 performance of 6/3/11

If Oscar Robertson wasn't TRASH during those two series, Kareem has 8 championships, at which point his GOAT case is basically unassailable (I'm sure people would bash it to prop up Jordan and say the early ones were garbage because the league was small). But again, it's hard to be mad at Oscar. Because Oscar was washed up by the time the 74 series happened.

The only real weaknesses in the Kareem GOAT cases is the late 70s issues with a Lakers team that gutted itself to get him in the trade, and him being not well liked by the media.

However Jordan's GOAT case has the same fundamental issue in that Jordan's teams didn't do **** from 84 to 87 and didn't break through until 90. 

A proper analysis of this topic involves going through season by season and examining the value of each season. For example, I think you would have to be crazy to argue that Lebron's 2016 playoffs isn't the most impressive achievement among the 3.

Edited December 27, 2021 by AlexGreen#20

[vegas492]

Interesting....the debate on GOAT for NBA.

Agree that Tim Duncan was a beast.  Dude was a silent killer.  I think he's criminally underrated by most fans of the NBA.

Much respect for Lebron's game and his longevity.  I personally do not like the guy, but I do respect him.

Magic, Bird.....etc.

MJ, though, is the GOAT for me.  He never lost a finals series.  Might have won 8 in a row if it weren't for his early "retirement".  His game evolved over time, too.  

All the guys mentioned as a GOAT candidate were extremely competitive.  They all had that killer instinct and will to win.

Jordan's will to win was just greater.  The only guy who really was close to MJ in that department was Magic in my book.

And that is why I dig Giannis right now.  He seems to have an edge over everyone with that will to win thing he's got going on.  Like he can take his game to a different level whenever he needs it to win a big game.

[Old Guy]

5 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

And in Lebron's age nobody shoots from midrange because it's a stupid *** shot that yields a ridiculously low points per shot unless the person taking it is an unbelievable midrange shooter. It's not practiced because it's fallen out of style. If you want to compare shooting ability that's fine, but crossing out one and not the other is hypocritical.

Removing Jordan's Wizard years just doesn't fly. If you're removing years, the years you remove is 94-95 to 96-97 when the league moved the 3 point line in.

Jordan went from shooting 30.1% from 3 in his first 9 years, to shooting 40.4% from 3 in those 3 years. He then shot 23.8% in his last year with the Bulls, and then went 18.9% and 29.1% in his two years with the Wizards. His 3 point shooting with the Wizards isn't out of character for him. 

You have plenty of big guys who play in the paint. Embid and Jokic have great post games. Those guys attacking smaller guys in the paint is their respective teams approach to combatting small ball lineups. Hell, there's no better example than Brook Lopez. He's got a great post game, but putting up 42% jump hook shots against other team's Centers just isn't an effective way to play basketball anymore. Points per post up hasn't moved much in the last 40 years. But the years where there was the most posting up were the years where you saw the absolutely awful slogging basketball that drove everybody crazy. 

**** man, even your own arguments point to the absolute insane longevity advantage Lebron has. "If you ignore his 14th and 15th season in the league . . ." 

Dude, Lebron led the league in minutes per game in his 14th and 15th season in the league. He went 26/9/7 and then 28/9/8 and made it to the Finals both years. 

What the hell are you talking about that the ball isn't in Lebron's hands when it's winning time? We're two years removed from him averaging 28/11/9 in a championship playoff run. His close out game of the Finals was a 28/14/10 triple double??

The close game in that series was 83-83 with 6.5 minutes left. James then scored 9 points, and assisted on 5 others. Only 5 points in the last segment of a 6 point finals win weren't scored or assisted by him. This is the sort of **** that Jordan stans would never shut up about, but with Lebron it's par for the course. 

GTFO of here the ball isn't in Lebron's hands. That's just ******* stupid. 

As far as Jordan succeeding a lot more than he failed, that's the dumbest argument in American sports. 

Jordan played for 15 seasons in the NBA. He won 6 championships. There are 9 years that Jordan didn't win a ring. Even if you want to be hypocritical and argue that the 14th and 15th seasons shouldn't count because he wasn't with the Bulls, that's still 7 years where he didn't win a championship. Jordan did not succeed more times than he failed. To say otherwise is to blatantly ignore evidence. 

Crafting an argument that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT involves reaching the conclusion and then backing your way into the criteria that you want. That criteria pretty much has to be, ignoring everything that happened prior to 1979, HUGE weight placed on high volume/high efficiency scoring, and post season team success, and zero weight placed on longevity, defensive impact metrics, rebounding, roster examinations, or analysis of how rapid expansion watered down teams before European talent started making it's way over.

+++

 More detailed and complete examinations of this topic tell us a lot of things. One of my favorite being Kareem's years with the Bucks:

In the 1972 Western Conference finals

Kareem put up 34/18/5

Oscar put up 9/6/5

The Lakers won in 6 and rolled a middling Knicks team that the Bucks would have crushed.

In the 1974 finals

Kareem put up 33/12/5

Oscar put up 12/4/8 including a game 7 performance of 6/3/11

If Oscar Robertson wasn't TRASH during those two series, Kareem has 8 championships, at which point his GOAT case is basically unassailable (I'm sure people would bash it to prop up Jordan and say the early ones were garbage because the league was small). But again, it's hard to be mad at Oscar. Because Oscar was washed up by the time the 74 series happened.

The only real weaknesses in the Kareem GOAT cases is the late 70s issues with a Lakers team that gutted itself to get him in the trade, and him being not well liked by the media.

However Jordan's GOAT case has the same fundamental issue in that Jordan's teams didn't do **** from 84 to 87 and didn't break through until 90. 

A proper analysis of this topic involves going through season by season and examining the value of each season. For example, I think you would have to be crazy to argue that Lebron's 2016 playoffs isn't the most impressive achievement among the 3.

Just one question for you regarding the 3-point shot. 

If you don't practice something during your developing years, for Jordan until he was through his junior year in college, are you going to struggle while learning that particular thing for a while? Translation, LeBron and a decade before him grew up with a three-point line. It's why they are better at it. 

The three-point line is ruing the game at younger levels. Go watch some high school basketball and see how enamored kids are with it. Sadly, coaches allow them to continue to fire away and missing at a rate of more than 8 out of ten. You watch kids pass up lay ups to pass to someone for a 3. Simply ridiculous. 

Jordan is my GOAT; you aren't changing my mind. I'm not changing yours, even though we both know LeBron was a choker for the first 10 years of his career. 

MJ had ice in his veins from his freshman year in college. He was the most clutch player ever and the best in MY OPINION. 

Enjoyed the conversation and am OK with agreeing to disagree. Full disclosure, I did not read all of your very long posts. I do respect your opinion and point of view and enjoy reading your posts. Except when they get too long. Then my ADD kicks in! 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Old Guy

[Old Guy]

13 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Interesting....the debate on GOAT for NBA.

Agree that Tim Duncan was a beast.  Dude was a silent killer.  I think he's criminally underrated by most fans of the NBA.

Much respect for Lebron's game and his longevity.  I personally do not like the guy, but I do respect him.

Magic, Bird.....etc.

MJ, though, is the GOAT for me.  He never lost a finals series.  Might have won 8 in a row if it weren't for his early "retirement".  His game evolved over time, too.  

All the guys mentioned as a GOAT candidate were extremely competitive.  They all had that killer instinct and will to win.

Jordan's will to win was just greater.  The only guy who really was close to MJ in that department was Magic in my book.

And that is why I dig Giannis right now.  He seems to have an edge over everyone with that will to win thing he's got going on.  Like he can take his game to a different level whenever he needs it to win a big game.

Some love for Magic, I love it! He would have definitely been in the conversation had his career not ended early. Magic simply made everybody on his team better players. Not sure you can say that about anybody else in the league to the degree Magic did it. 

[vegas492]

2 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

Some love for Magic, I love it! He would have definitely been in the conversation had his career not ended early. Magic simply made everybody on his team better players. Not sure you can say that about anybody else in the league to the degree Magic did it. 

I loved watching that Dream Team scrimmage when it was Magic vs. MJ.  Best pickup game ever played.

[Packerraymond]

But Lebron made a crappy Space Jam.

Jordan >>>>>>>

 

[Mr Bad Example]

35 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Jordan's will to win was just greater.  The only guy who really was close to MJ in that department was Magic in my book.

 

I dunno, though - I'm only a casual NBA fan but I'm pretty sure 3 or 4 of LeBron's Finals teams may have had no business in the playoffs, much less the Finals, w/o LeBron. W/o Jordan, the Bulls were still a 50 win team. 

It's tough for me to say someone pushing a very good team over the top has more of a "will to win" than a person who drags a lottery team all the way to the championship round. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Mr Bad Example

[squire12]

34 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

 

MJ, though, is the GOAT for me.  He never lost a finals series.  Might have won 8 in a row if it weren't for his early "retirement".  His game evolved over time, too.  

LeBron dragging 2007 Cavs to the finals is something Jordan didn't do.  

Not sure why getting to the finals and losing is viewed as worse than not getting there.

[vegas492]

2 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

 

I dunno, though - I'm only a casual NBA fan but I'm pretty sure 3 or 4 of LeBron's Finals teams may have had no business in the playoffs, much less the Finals, w/o LeBron. W/o Jordan, the Bulls were still a 50 win team. 

It's tough for me to say someone pushing a very good team over the top has more of a "will to win" than a person who drags a lottery team all the way to the championship round. 

I loved watched basketball back when MJ played.  Different league.  More pride.  To me, there were guys then that were more about winning than filling up their stat sheet.

MJ was the most intense competitor that I have ever seen on a basketball court.  Magic and Isaiah Thomas maybe the next two.  Then Kobe and Duncan.  Bird was pretty hurt (back) when I was watching him.  

Then things changed in the NBA.  Seemed like more of a focus on stats than wins.  As a general statement.

Then along came Lebron.  Insanely talented.  He's an all time great, for sure.  He could have played at the highest level during any timeframe in the NBA.  Generational talent for sure.  And with the game on the line, I'd rather the ball be in MJ's hands over Lebron's.  And it isn't even close.