TAPT Version 70.0 Steve Dowden follows the rules

[Old Guy]

@AlexGreen#20 we are from different generations and will NEVER agree on this topic. It has been fun, and I know I've said I was bowing out 3 times now. 

Have a great rest of your day! I'm sticking to my guns and so are you. Another internet debate and nobody changed with mind. Shocking! 

[AlexGreen#20]

10 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

MJ shot .327 from 3-point line for his career. His first four years he never shot better than .182. He never grew up with the 3-point shot being a thing, which I mentioned earlier. There was no need to practice it until he got to the NBA.  For you to say he 'never developed that shot,' is total bull****. He raised his average by over .150 over the balance of his career to get to the career mark. MJ only took 1.7 - 3's per game because it wasn't a big part of the game when he played for the better part of his career.  LeBron averaged about 3.25 over the first 4 years of his career. His career average is .345. Guess he never really got any better than did he? He takes 4.4 - 3's per game. 

MJ averaged 30 points over his career and LeBron just over 27. MJ averaged 8.2 FT's per game and made 6.8, 83.5%. LeBron averages 7.8 FT's per game and makes 5.8, .73.4%. LeBron - five years under 70% free throw shooting. MJ, two years under 80%, never under 78%. 

Your idea that LeBron is a better shooter is a fallacy. The numbers do not bear it out. 

Jordan only shot 32.7% over his career because he got 3 years at 40% because the league moved the 3 point line in. If your argument is that he lacked practice than there's no logical explanation for him shooting 24%, 19%. and 29% in his last three years in the league. He was sub 30% from the NBA 3 point distance. 

Lebron is a better shooter from inside 10 feet. His length and vertical allows him to elevate above challenges and finish at a higher rate than Jordan could.

As discussed, Lebron is better from the rim to 10 feet and from 3. Jordan is better from 10-3point. Jordan is also a better free throw shooter. If shooting is the thing that you're saying has to seperate Jordan from Lebron, you're probably right in the sense that he was a better pure shooter, but it sure as **** isn't enough to make up for 8 fewer elite seasons. 

[squire12]

Jordan's 'will to win' certainly was improved by the development of his surrounding cast.

[AlexGreen#20]

14 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

I don't blame Scottie for wanting out to get paid, but people tried to tell him not to sign the original extension with Chicago because he was getting screwed. He did it anyway.

I don't see that as an indictment on Jordan whatsoever. Jordan just won 3 championships. LeBron had to put together a fantasy team to get his. How many were they supposed to win in Miami? I remember them counting on that corny signing show. I think it was 7 but it would up be being what? 2? Then he bailed because he knew they weren't going to win again. 

Went back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love and won one. Kyrie should have been the MVP in that finals too. 

Jordan has six championships and six NBA Finals MVP's. LeBron has 4 but should only have 3 MVP's. 

Jordans front office delivered him elite teammates. Lebron's and Kareem's did not. Had those guys not left, the narrative would be that they weren't GOATs because they didn't win enough championships. A player's evaluation shouldn't hinge on what his front office does for him. 

In Miami, Wade broke down and Bosh ended up with his lung issues. 

Why the **** would Kyrie deserve Finals MVP in 2016? 27/4/4 isn't close to 30/11/9. Anybody seriously arguing Kyrie should have won Finals MVP in 2016 is just outing themselves as a hater. Kevin Love scored 51 total points in the 16 Finals, he didn't matter. 

We're begrudging LeBron for ruining into the 14 Spurs and the Durant/Curry Warriors? If Jordan faced those teams with Lebron's roster he wouldn't have 6 rings either. 

[AlexGreen#20]

13 minutes ago, squire12 said:

Jordan's 'will to win' certainly was improved by the development of his surrounding cast.

Jordan's will to win can in fact be directly measured by his teams +/- numbers with him off the court. 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Fantasy football question .. I'm up one point in a playoff game, with Mike Gesicky yet to play.  My opponent is out of players.  Should I sit Gesicki, or just roll with it thinking the odds of him turning in a negative performance is nearly impossible. Sitting him could insure victory, but league scoring changes are always a possibility until at least midweek.  Leaning toward just playing the guy.

Play him

[ThatJerkDave]

LeBron nor Jordan ever won the Iditarod.  Jordan because he couldn't possibly go a week without gambling, and LeBron because he is a big bundle of sticks. 

[Old Guy]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Jordan only shot 32.7% over his career because he got 3 years at 40% because the league moved the 3 point line in. If your argument is that he lacked practice than there's no logical explanation for him shooting 24%, 19%. and 29% in his last three years in the league. He was sub 30% from the NBA 3 point distance. 

Lebron is a better shooter from inside 10 feet. His length and vertical allows him to elevate above challenges and finish at a higher rate than Jordan could.

As discussed, Lebron is better from the rim to 10 feet and from 3. Jordan is better from 10-3point. Jordan is also a better free throw shooter. If shooting is the thing that you're saying has to seperate Jordan from Lebron, you're probably right in the sense that he was a better pure shooter, but it sure as **** isn't enough to make up for 8 fewer elite seasons. 

He lacked practice because there was no three-point line when he played growing up in high school and college. It's a pretty simple concept. Once he got into the league he got better as he put in more reps at that range.

He lost 3 seasons because HE HAD to go to college for three years, that was the rule. He lost two more because of his hiatus, forced or voluntary, I don't know. You're confusing longevity with greatness. 

Enough though.  

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Old Guy said:

He lacked practice because there was no three-point line when he played growing up in high school and college. It's a pretty simple concept. Once he got into the league he got better as he put in more reps at that range.

He lost 3 seasons because HE HAD to go to college for three years, that was the rule. He lost two more because of his hiatus, forced or voluntary, I don't know. You're confusing longevity with greatness. 

Enough though.  

His last three years in the league were sub 30%. Enough with the practice bull****. If you've been a professional ball player for 15 years, practice isn't an excuse. 

Kareem also lost time to college and also won 6 rings. 

[Leader]

6 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Kareem also lost time to college and also won 6 rings. 

Breaking in to this rat-atat-tat at the mention of Kareem.....to interject that he perfected the most unstoppable shot in NBA history: the Sky Hook.

Not only did he use it to become the all time scoring leader - but no one has seriously copied or emulated it since him.

Truly one of a kind.

That is all.....back to your regularly scheduled programming

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Leader

[AlexGreen#20]

57 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

He lacked practice because there was no three-point line when he played growing up in high school and college. It's a pretty simple concept. Once he got into the league he got better as he put in more reps at that range.

He lost 3 seasons because HE HAD to go to college for three years, that was the rule. He lost two more because of his hiatus, forced or voluntary, I don't know. You're confusing longevity with greatness. 

Enough though.  

If Longevity is irrelevant is Shaq the GOAT? He's got a more dominant single season than Jordan. 

[{Family Ghost}]

4 hours ago, Norm said:

I'd play him. 

I played him 

[Old Guy]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

His last three years in the league were sub 30%. Enough with the practice bull****. If you've been a professional ball player for 15 years, practice isn't an excuse. 

Kareem also lost time to college and also won 6 rings. 

His last three years he was losing his legs. If you think a guy who doesn't shoot from that range for his life and suddenly decided to start, he's going to be good at it. I don't know why we're having this discussion. People practice for a reason. Even if Allen Iverson didn't think it was necessary. So when you look at the middle, his prime, he was a damned good 3-point shooter, So, thank you for making my point. 

Kareem was 7'2 which you can't teach or coach. He was a shadow of is former self when Magic, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, ect. carried him to a few more. 

[Old Guy]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

If Longevity is irrelevant is Shaq the GOAT? He's got a more dominant single season than Jordan. 

Shaq had too many holes in his game. Shooting from outside of 5 feet for instance. 

Jordan is the GOAT IMO. You have a different opinion. I'm perfectly fine with that outcome. You seem hellbent on changing my mind. It isn't going to happen. I've drawn the conclusion I won't be changing your mind either. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Old Guy

[AlexGreen#20]

12 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

His last three years he was losing his legs. If you think a guy who doesn't shoot from that range for his life and suddenly decided to start, he's going to be good at it. I don't know why we're having this discussion. People practice for a reason. Even if Allen Iverson didn't think it was necessary. So when you look at the middle, his prime, he was a damned good 3-point shooter, So, thank you for making my point. 

Kareem was 7'2 which you can't teach or coach. He was a shadow of is former self when Magic, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, ect. carried him to a few more. 

We're having this discussion because you refuse to admit that Jordan was a dog **** 3 point shooter despite it being an indisputable fact.

Kareem was still the defensive anchor of those championship teams. Just because he wasn't their primary scorer doesn't mean he wasn't a hugely impactful piece of their team. 

The scoring production on these guys is what makes this tough:

Lebron: 36.6 points/100, 58.7% TS, 1331 games

Jordan: 40.4 points/100, 56.9% TS, 1072 games

Kareem: 29.9 points/100, 59.2% TS, 1560 games

So what do you value more? Jordan's 3.8 more points per 100 or Lebron's 1.8% higher TS and 23%ish more games.

Obviously Kareem's points are lower, but his efficiency is absurd, unlike Jordan (and to a much lesser extent LeBron) he sacrificed some of his scoring as part of his role. 

He also had just huge rebounding numbers, was a pretty darn good defender (much more impactful than the other two by nature of his position), was a very solid passer, and unlike a lot of bigs, he was capable of creating his own shot in the half court with his skyhook. 

Jordan per 100: 40/8/7

Kareem per 100: 30/13/5

Lebron per 100: 37/10/10

There's an argument to be made for any of these guys. Declaring Jordan the inarguable winner when taking into account defensive impact and longevity just doesn't match our facts.