TAPT Version 70.0 Steve Dowden follows the rules

[Mr Bad Example]

Youre getting dangerously close to "back in MY day" territory

[squire12]

3 minutes ago, Mr Bad Example said:

Youre getting dangerously close to "back in MY day" territory

[{Family Ghost}]

Fantasy football question .. I'm up one point in a playoff game, with Mike Gesicky yet to play.  My opponent is out of players.  Should I sit Gesicki, or just roll with it thinking the odds of him turning in a negative performance is nearly impossible. Sitting him could insure victory, but league scoring changes are always a possibility until at least midweek.  Leaning toward just playing the guy.

[Leader]

1 minute ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Fantasy football question .. I'm up one point in a playoff game, with Mike Gesicky yet to play.  My opponent is out of players.  Should I sit Gesicki, or just roll with it thinking the odds of him turning in a negative performance is nearly impossible. Sitting him could insure victory, but league scoring changes are always a possibility until at least midweek.  Leaning toward just playing the guy.

Be bold. Be brave. Play your selection. Victory will only taste sweeter.

[squire12]

2 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Fantasy football question .. I'm up one point in a playoff game, with Mike Gesicky yet to play.  My opponent is out of players.  Should I sit Gesicki, or just roll with it thinking the odds of him turning in a negative performance is nearly impossible. Sitting him could insure victory, but league scoring changes are always a possibility until at least midweek.  Leaning toward just playing the guy.

Play him.  Lost a game earlier this season on a stat correction

[Norm]

2 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Fantasy football question .. I'm up one point in a playoff game, with Mike Gesicky yet to play.  My opponent is out of players.  Should I sit Gesicki, or just roll with it thinking the odds of him turning in a negative performance is nearly impossible. Sitting him could insure victory, but league scoring changes are always a possibility until at least midweek.  Leaning toward just playing the guy.

I'd play him. 

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Interesting....the debate on GOAT for NBA.

Agree that Tim Duncan was a beast.  Dude was a silent killer.  I think he's criminally underrated by most fans of the NBA.

Much respect for Lebron's game and his longevity.  I personally do not like the guy, but I do respect him.

Magic, Bird.....etc.

MJ, though, is the GOAT for me.  He never lost a finals series.  Might have won 8 in a row if it weren't for his early "retirement".  His game evolved over time, too.  

All the guys mentioned as a GOAT candidate were extremely competitive.  They all had that killer instinct and will to win.

Jordan's will to win was just greater.  The only guy who really was close to MJ in that department was Magic in my book.

And that is why I dig Giannis right now.  He seems to have an edge over everyone with that will to win thing he's got going on.  Like he can take his game to a different level whenever he needs it to win a big game.

Not a chance in hell Jordan wins 8 in a row. Those two years off were vital not just for recharging him, but for allowing the Bulls to rebuild their cap and roster. I feel like people are forgetting how absolutely beat down those Bulls teams were in 98. They had slipped from 1st in Offensive Rating and 1st in Defensive Rating in 96 to 1st in Offensive Rating and 4th in Defensive Rating in 97 to 9th in Offensive Rating and 3rd in Defensive Rating in 98. Jordan was hurt and everybody needed a break. Those long postseasons are devastating on the NBA body. In addition, the Bulls couldn't afford to pay Pippen. He signed for a much bigger deal with the Rockets in 99 than the Bulls could afford to pay him, even with Jordan retiring. 

Jordan's will to win being greater is such mythological bull****. Jordan was a GOAT level talent who ended up on a team with a front office who actually was able to put talent around him. When you look at history, neither the Bucks with Kareem nor the Cavs with Lebron were able to really do that effectively. Ironic considering how much Jordan hates Krause. Had the Cavs drafted Damian Lillard at 4 rather than Dion Waiters in the 2012 Draft this is an entirely different conversation. 

**** man, even in regard to Giannis, he's a god damn physical freak. The "will to win" stuff is just nonsense. Giannis is an amazing player surrounded by guys that compliment his game. The Bucks were lucky enough to fleece the Pistons in a trade that for some reason is still called "The Brandon Jennings trade" to get Kris Middleton, and then they mortgaged the future for Jrue Holiday. They made smart low budget moves for Lopez, Portis, and the other cast of backups on that team. **** man, there's 2 guys on the Bucks roster now that would be the best teammate Lebron played with in Cleveland.

The second Lebron had a team around him that matched up with the talent of those 3peat Bulls teams, he started winning championships. Just like when Jordan had Cavs tier teams, he didn't win ****. 

In 89 Jordan lost to the Pistons in a series where he had games of: 10/29, 5/15, and 4/8

In 90 Jordan lost to the Pistons in a series where he had games of 12/27, 5/16, and 7/19

This myth that Jordan was some kind of unstoppable playoff legend is such nonsense. He was an amazing player, but he was just a player. 

 

[Old Guy]

1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Not a chance in hell Jordan wins 8 in a row. Those two years off were vital not just for recharging him, but for allowing the Bulls to rebuild their cap and roster. I feel like people are forgetting how absolutely beat down those Bulls teams were in 98. They had slipped from 1st in Offensive Rating and 1st in Defensive Rating in 96 to 1st in Offensive Rating and 4th in Defensive Rating in 97 to 9th in Offensive Rating and 3rd in Defensive Rating in 98. Jordan was hurt and everybody needed a break. Those long postseasons are devastating on the NBA body. In addition, the Bulls couldn't afford to pay Pippen. He signed for a much bigger deal with the Rockets in 99 than the Bulls could afford to pay him, even with Jordan retiring. 

 

 

The bold part is factually inaccurate. Jerry Krause was hell bent on starting over. The team knew it was over no matter what at the end of the '98 season. Pippen was traded to Houstib and they gave him more money with a new deal. Pippen was being paid like 3 million a year in Chicago, vastly underpaid. 

The Bulls could have given him more, but Krause refused to re-negotiate Pippen's deal before the 97-98 season, so Pippen held off a surgery and missed substantial time at the beginning of that season. A reason why that Bulls team slipped in offensive and defensive ratings. 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, Old Guy said:

Just one question for you regarding the 3-point shot. 

If you don't practice something during your developing years, for Jordan until he was through his junior year in college, are you going to struggle while learning that particular thing for a while? Translation, LeBron and a decade before him grew up with a three-point line. It's why they are better at it. 

The three-point line is ruing the game at younger levels. Go watch some high school basketball and see how enamored kids are with it. Sadly, coaches allow them to continue to fire away and missing at a rate of more than 8 out of ten. You watch kids pass up lay ups to pass to someone for a 3. Simply ridiculous. 

Jordan is my GOAT; you aren't changing my mind. I'm not changing yours, even though we both know LeBron was a choker for the first 10 years of his career. 

MJ had ice in his veins from his freshman year in college. He was the most clutch player ever and the best in MY OPINION. 

Enjoyed the conversation and am OK with agreeing to disagree. Full disclosure, I did not read all of your very long posts. I do respect your opinion and point of view and enjoy reading your posts. Except when they get too long. Then my ADD kicks in! 

Jordan played from 84 to 02 and still couldn't shoot 3s at a league average level. That's the facts. Him not developing that shot is inexcusable and should absolutely be a mark against him. He didn't "struggle while learning that particular thing for a while." He flat out didn't ever become proficient with it. People DOG Giannis for his 3 point shooting, but he's as good of a 3 point shooter as Jordan was. 

By what possible logic is Lebron a choker until year 10 and Jordan wasn't? Lebron won a title at 27 years old in his 9th year in the league. Jordan won a title at 27 years old in his 7th year in the league. 

Was Lebron a choker when he went 36/8/6 in his first playoff series???

Was he a choker when he went 48/9/7 in 07 in game 6 against the Pistons?

This list can go on forever. James is no more a choker than Jordan was. 

We just choose to gloss over Jordan's flaws and hyper focus on Lebron's.

[vegas492]

"Jordan's will to win being greater is such mythological bull****."  @AlexGreen#20

No.  It is not.  Had you been old enough to appreciate Jordan beyond studying statistics, you would know that.

You would also know that prior to Jordan, the game was won in the middle.  Centers ruled the NBA.  You needed one to win it all.  Then came Jordan and that was no longer true.

But you are not capable of really understanding that, because it doesn't fit box score analysis.

But you could simply listen to other legends who played the game talk about the greatest they played against.  Jordan is going to be at the top of every one of their lists, for precisely what you feel is "mythological bull****".

You talk about how great the Bulls roster was.  It was great because it had Jordan.  He elevated every player around him.

Paxson was nothing special, but he worked with Jordan.  Kerr was a journeyman, a role player.  And he worked with Jordan.  Kukoc was a mental midget when he was with the Bulls, Jordan made him strong.  He has said as much.

Pippen was an amazing player in his own right.  But he couldn't lead a team, nor could he handle being the top dog on a team.  He proved it when he left Chicago.  Horace Grant became a footnote in the NBA when he left the Bulls.

Cartwright was over the hill when MJ was there, but he worked on that team.  Rodman?  A castoff.  And really?  More or less a clown once he left Detroit.  But, he could rebound, he could play defense and he was an enforcer, and it worked with Jordan.

BJ Armstrong, an over the hill Ron Harper, Luc Longley....etc.

I can go on and on, but you won't care.  You just remember box scores.

You may feel like Jordan couldn't have won those other two titles when he was "retired".  Maybe you are right.  But I'll tell you this, he was in his Prime.  And you do not tug on Superman's cape.

If Giannis does not have an uber competitive will to win, then how does he drop 51 in the biggest game, while going 17 for 19 from the free throw line?  You see his turn around jumper in the 4'th?  Giannis can elevate his play to match the moment, when it calls for it.  It is similar to MJ stealing the ball from Karl Malone, then going down and sinking the shot for the championship.  All you gotta do is watch Giannis' face to see when he turns it up a notch.  He really gets into the zone, and it is amazing to watch.

Edited December 27, 2021 by vegas492

[AlexGreen#20]

1 minute ago, Old Guy said:

The bold part is factually inaccurate. Jerry Krause was hell bent on starting over. The team knew it was over no matter what at the end of the '98 season. Pippen was traded to Houstib and they gave him more money with a new deal. Pippen was being paid like 3 million a year in Chicago, vastly underpaid. 

The Bulls could have given him more, but Krause refused to re-negotiate Pippen's deal before the 97-98 season, so Pippen held off a surgery and missed substantial time at the beginning of that season. A reason why that Bulls team slipped in offensive and defensive ratings. 

 

Pippen was an S&T to Houston. He was a Free Agent, and had a horrible taste in his mouth from the franchise refusing to pay him what he was worth for like a decade due to the free agency/trade rules. You want to look at another reason why Jordan was successful. He got the Tom Brady affect (far under league market value pay for elite production) from his best teammate. 

Hell, if you want to talk about another damning indictment for Jordan in regards to Pippen. Let's talk about 93-94 where the Bulls finished with 55 wins and Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan. Compare that to the Cavs when Lebron left either team. Damn. 

[Norm]

basketballspast.com

Edited December 27, 2021 by Norm

[Old Guy]

6 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Jordan played from 84 to 02 and still couldn't shoot 3s at a league average level. That's the facts. Him not developing that shot is inexcusable and should absolutely be a mark against him. He didn't "struggle while learning that particular thing for a while." He flat out didn't ever become proficient with it. People DOG Giannis for his 3 point shooting, but he's as good of a 3 point shooter as Jordan was. 

By what possible logic is Lebron a choker until year 10 and Jordan wasn't? Lebron won a title at 27 years old in his 9th year in the league. Jordan won a title at 27 years old in his 7th year in the league. 

Was Lebron a choker when he went 36/8/6 in his first playoff series???

Was he a choker when he went 48/9/7 in 07 in game 6 against the Pistons?

This list can go on forever. James is no more a choker than Jordan was. 

We just choose to gloss over Jordan's flaws and hyper focus on Lebron's.

MJ shot .327 from 3-point line for his career. His first four years he never shot better than .182. He never grew up with the 3-point shot being a thing, which I mentioned earlier. There was no need to practice it until he got to the NBA.  For you to say he 'never developed that shot,' is total bull****. He raised his average by over .150 over the balance of his career to get to the career mark. MJ only took 1.7 - 3's per game because it wasn't a big part of the game when he played for the better part of his career.  LeBron averaged about 3.25 over the first 4 years of his career. His career average is .345. Guess he never really got any better than did he? He takes 4.4 - 3's per game. 

MJ averaged 30 points over his career and LeBron just over 27. MJ averaged 8.2 FT's per game and made 6.8, 83.5%. LeBron averages 7.8 FT's per game and makes 5.8, .73.4%. LeBron - five years under 70% free throw shooting. MJ, two years under 80%, never under 78%. 

Your idea that LeBron is a better shooter is a fallacy. The numbers do not bear it out. 

[Old Guy]

17 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Pippen was an S&T to Houston. He was a Free Agent, and had a horrible taste in his mouth from the franchise refusing to pay him what he was worth for like a decade due to the free agency/trade rules. You want to look at another reason why Jordan was successful. He got the Tom Brady affect (far under league market value pay for elite production) from his best teammate. 

Hell, if you want to talk about another damning indictment for Jordan in regards to Pippen. Let's talk about 93-94 where the Bulls finished with 55 wins and Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan. Compare that to the Cavs when Lebron left either team. Damn. 

I don't blame Scottie for wanting out to get paid, but people tried to tell him not to sign the original extension with Chicago because he was getting screwed. He did it anyway.

I don't see that as an indictment on Jordan whatsoever. Jordan just won 3 championships. LeBron had to put together a fantasy team to get his. How many were they supposed to win in Miami? I remember them counting on that corny signing show. I think it was 7 but it would up be being what? 2? Then he bailed because he knew they weren't going to win again. 

Went back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love and won one. Kyrie should have been the MVP in that finals too. 

Jordan has six championships and six NBA Finals MVP's. LeBron has 4 but should only have 3 MVP's. 

[AlexGreen#20]

5 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

"Jordan's will to win being greater is such mythological bull****."  @AlexGreen#20

No.  It is not.  Had you been old enough to appreciate Jordan beyond studying statistics, you would know that.

You would also know that prior to Jordan, the game was won in the middle.  Centers ruled the NBA.  You needed one to win it all.  Then came Jordan and that was no longer true.

But you are not capable of really understanding that, because it doesn't fit box score analysis.

But you could simply listen to other legends who played the game talk about the greatest they played against.  Jordan is going to be at the top of every one of their lists, for precisely what you feel is "mythological bull****".

You talk about how great the Bulls roster was.  It was great because it had Jordan.  He elevated every player around him.

Paxson was nothing special, but he worked with Jordan.  Kerr was a journeyman, a role player.  And he worked with Jordan.  Kukoc was a mental midget when he was with the Bulls, Jordan made him strong.  He has said as much.

Pippen was an amazing player in his own right.  But he couldn't lead a team, nor could he handle being the top dog on a team.  He proved it when he left Chicago.  Horace Grant became a footnote in the NBA when he left the Bulls.

Cartwright was over the hill when MJ was there, but he worked on that team.  Rodman?  A castoff.  And really?  More or less a clown once he left Detroit.  But, he could rebound, he could play defense and he was an enforcer, and it worked with Jordan.

BJ Armstrong, an over the hill Ron Harper, Luc Longley....etc.

I can go on and on, but you won't care.  You just remember box scores.

You may feel like Jordan couldn't have won those other two titles when he was "retired".  Maybe you are right.  But I'll tell you this, he was in his Prime.  And you do not tug on Superman's cape.

If Giannis does not have an uber competitive will to win, then how does he drop 51 in the biggest game, while going 17 for 19 from the free throw line?  You see his turn around jumper in the 4'th?  Giannis can elevate his play to match the moment, when it calls for it.  It is similar to MJ stealing the ball from Karl Malone, then going down and sinking the shot for the championship.  All you gotta do is watch Giannis' face to see when he turns it up a notch.  He really gets into the zone, and it is amazing to watch.

Jordan's "Will to Win" narrative, is quite literally the result of a Nike marketing campaign. Your entire generation was the target of one of the first psychological operation that a corporation ever ran on the United States population. And it worked. Your entire generation won't even engage in a discussion about Michael Jordan rationally. Facts are irrelevant, nothing matters except the narrative. ****, it even poisoned the minds of Kobe stans who to this day are still narrative obsessed.

Jordan had the rules changed for him. Getting rid of hand checking and altering illegal defense were designed around making the game more perimeter oriented. The league changed for Jordan just like the NFL changed for Manning and now DBs can't breath on receivers. 

Jon Paxon wasn't anything special in San Antonio and he wasn't anything special in Chicago. He wasn't "Elevated". He was just a fairly respectable guy to dribble the ball up the court. 

Steve Kerr was a journeyman and a role player. He was journeyman and a role player in Chicago too. He also wasn't elevated. He sat on the perimeter and shot 3s when needed.

How the hell was Toni Kukoc a mental midget??? He was a 4 time EuroLeague MVP and had a EuroLeague championship before he even arrived in America. Kukoc drilled in the game winner in the playoffs in 94 in the game where Pippen refused to go in.

Pippen led the team to 55 wins in 94. He came in 3rd in MVP voting. Pippen didn't prove anything after he left the Bulls other than that he was 33 years old and that his back was shot. 

When Horace Grant was with the Bulls he averaged 13/9/2. In the next four years with the Magic, Horace Grant averaged . . . 13/9/2. 

Cartwright was over the hill. He was a role player and played his role. Why are you acting like Jordan shouldn't have had to play with role players? 

Dennis Rodman couldn't just rebound and play defense, He was a top 10 rebounder and defender of all time. He was Draymond Green. 

Giannis pulled out 51 points because he was having one of the days where he's just that good. He wasn't conserving energy for the next game, he was just going 110%. Games like that are the reason why Budenholzer tries to keep his minutes so low in the regular season so that he has gas in the tank for those games. There have been plenty of games where Giannis has been crap in the playoffs and Middleton bailed him out.