bucksavage1 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: The savings are 10 million. That 10 million isn't doing anything. With this logic, Carr should be the bridge. Also, this is truly an inane take. The results are a team game. Always has been. If Carr played like hot garbage and we won 12 games, wouldn't you still want to upgrade? I know I would. Watson would be great. But would you give up 3+ first rounders and more to get him? How would you fix the defense in the meantime? If Results is a team based stat...then why is everyone blaming the defense. With that logic you agree that Carr isn't the problem but apart of it Would I give up 3 1st round picks for Watson? Yes, I would easily. We had 5 1st round picks last two years with only one having impact in Jacobs. Draft picks are overrated Get creative with fixing the defense. 1st we brought in a better DC. When you bring in a QB like Watson, we'll get veteran defenders to come in who can contribute at a discount. However, relying on our drafting has not worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I've been critical of Carr and would absolutely love to add a more dynamic player that can make plays out of the structure of the offense. But even if we do that we're never going to be a team that wins consistently unless we have a respectable defense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNBlackFan Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 23 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Record when their opponent scores 30+ Mahomes: 4-7 Rodgers: 12-33 Watson: 2-11 Wilson: 7-16 Prescott: 3-8 Jackson: 0-3 Brady: 17-30 Our defense allowed 30+ 10 times this season. You're not seeing the bigger picture. I'm not saying the defense doesn't need to improve, it absolutely does. It has been awful forever, and I don't place blame on Carr for that. I'm saying that with Carr as your QB, there will always be something new that we need to fix in order to win with him. He is a good, not great QB who doesn't play his best football late in the year. And by your own admission, he hasn't shown the ability to elevate a franchise. We pay Carr and bring in high priced defensive guys like Leonard Williams, and Melvin Ingram but what does that mean for our high priced oline, which Carr absolutely needs in tact to succeed? What does that mean for our WRs? We lose Nelson Algholor who Carr has a decent rapport with? Then we will be complaining Carr doesn't have the help on offense again. A leak will always spring open. The formula for sustained winning with a non elite QB is an elusive one. Jared Goff, Jimmy G, and Alex Smith are a few examples of teams who have done it recently. But they all are coached by transcendent offensive minds in Andy Reid, McVay and Kyle Shanahan. Gruden can't hold any of their jock straps. Look around the league at the playoff teams. Most either have young ascending QBs still on their rookie deals, a transcendent QB capable of overcoming roster deficiencies, or legendary QBs on under the market deals trying to win on their last legs. Where does Carr fit in with that group? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackinBlack Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: If Results is a team based stat...then why is everyone blaming the defense. With that logic you agree that Carr isn't the problem but apart of it lol well you know you are losing a debate when you have to start arguing that blaming one person is the same as an entire unit. Results are a team based stat. Results are entirely made up of, which team had more points at the end of the day. Our O, is typically playing against a better D than our D. Our D is not typically playing against a better O than our O. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: If Results is a team based stat...then why is everyone blaming the defense. With that logic you agree that Carr isn't the problem but apart of it Would I give up 3 1st round picks for Watson? Yes, I would easily. We had 5 1st round picks last two years with only one having impact in Jacobs. Draft picks are overrated Get creative with fixing the defense. 1st we brought in a better DC. When you bring in a QB like Watson, we'll get veteran defenders to come in who can contribute at a discount. However, relying on our drafting has not worked Why is everyone blaming the defense? Because it was historically bad. Historically. That is objective. Because a team game means you look at both sides of the ball and the contributions by each player to the end result. I don't agree at all that Carr is part of the "problem". I seriously have no idea what logic you are referring to. Carr is NOT responsible for all the offensive success. He orchestrates it and throws the ball, but you have to give credit to some excellent talent across the offensive side of the ball. Waller, Jacobs, even Agholor are damn good players and the offensive line as a whole is still very well rounded and solid, even if they weren't playing close to their potential. But I don't see how you can look as Carr as part of the "problem". We were 7th in points scored per drive. 31st in points allowed per drive. You talk about how the defense looks worse when we turn it over. The defense barely generated turnovers. We were near the bottom of the league in 3 and out percentage too. That makes the offense look worse. Carr is not perfect, but he is definitely a contributor to that points per drive stat. The Packers have Aaron Rodgers and haven't been able to bring in defenders at a discount. The Chiefs have Pat Mahomes and haven't been able to bring in players at a discount. What makes you think players will just take a discount for Watson in particular? Seems like wishful thinking to me. You think draft picks are overrated, but Houston has sucked because they have mortgaged their future for short term trash. You think putting Watson on another team lacking talent and depth is a recipe for success? We have seen how that has ended up in Houston. You want to do it again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 26 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said: "Fix the defense" the year before "Carr needs weapons" the year before "He needs continuity with a OC" the year before "It's Todd Downings fault" or remember "Amari Cooper sucks" now it's "Henry Ruggs is no good" There will always be an excuse, bro Some valid, others not. And that's what you sign up for when you have a good but not great QB, and a guy in Gruden who is terrible at team building. It's purgatory at it's finest. I'm not blaming Carr. He is what he is, I think he would be more successful on a better built team. And we would be better off resetting, imo. But I just think we will spend years chasing the perfect balance for us to win with him and his contract is coming up soon and he will want to be paid. So yeah, let's pay Carr as the third best QB in the division. Lets build our team like the Titans this year. That's about as good as we can hope to be under Carr/Gruden. Every year it is a rotating excuse. There is reasons why the Lions and Raiders are at the bottom of the NFL in winning the last 15 years. We both have long tenured QBs as well. IMO we are in dangerous territory of continuing to being at the bottom of the division for the next 5-7 years if we re-sign Carr. Herbert and Mahomes are only gonna continue to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said: You're not seeing the bigger picture. I'm not saying the defense doesn't need to improve, it absolutely does. It has been awful forever, and I don't place blame on Carr for that. I'm saying that with Carr as your QB, there will always be something new that we need to fix in order to win with him. He is a good, not great QB who doesn't play his best football late in the year. And by your own admission, he hasn't shown the ability to elevate a franchise. We pay Carr and bring in high priced defensive guys like Leonard Williams, and Melvin Ingram but what does that mean for our high priced oline, which Carr absolutely needs in tact to succeed? What does that mean for our WRs? We lose Nelson Algholor who Carr has a decent rapport with? Then we will be complaining Carr doesn't have the help on offense again. A leak will always spring open. The formula for sustained winning with a non elite QB is an elusive one. Jared Goff, Jimmy G, and Alex Smith are a few examples of teams who have done it recently. But they all are coached by transcendent offensive minds in Andy Reid, McVay and Kyle Shanahan. Gruden can't hold any of their jock straps. Look around the league at the playoff teams. Most either have young ascending QBs still on their rookie deals, a transcendent QB capable of overcoming roster deficiencies, or legendary QBs on under the market deals trying to win on their last legs. Where does Carr fit in with that group? He's in the Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford group. Above average qb's (in the 10-12 range) who can win but can't carry a team. He is younger than both though. Good enough that you are better than the average joes and mediocre quarterbacks of the world, but not good enough to carry a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, bucksavage1 said: Every year it is a rotating excuse. There is reasons why the Lions and Raiders are at the bottom of the NFL in winning the last 15 years. We both have long tenured QBs as well. IMO we are in dangerous territory of continuing to being at the bottom of the division for the next 5-7 years if we re-sign Carr. Herbert and Mahomes are only gonna continue to get better. I still don't see the logic. What do you mean a "rotating excuse". Should the Saints have gotten rid of Drew Brees in 2014-2016 when they went 7-9 for 3 years in a row? What changed? They drafted well and put together an excellent TEAM. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said: But they all are coached by transcendent offensive minds in Andy Reid, McVay and Kyle Shanahan. Gruden can't hold any of their jock straps. How come McVay's offense has scored more points than the 2020 Raiders once in 3 years if he's so much better than Gruden? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said: You're not seeing the bigger picture. I'm not saying the defense doesn't need to improve, it absolutely does. It has been awful forever, and I don't place blame on Carr for that. I'm saying that with Carr as your QB, there will always be something new that we need to fix in order to win with him. He is a good, not great QB who doesn't play his best football late in the year. And by your own admission, he hasn't shown the ability to elevate a franchise. We pay Carr and bring in high priced defensive guys like Leonard Williams, and Melvin Ingram but what does that mean for our high priced oline, which Carr absolutely needs in tact to succeed? What does that mean for our WRs? We lose Nelson Algholor who Carr has a decent rapport with? Then we will be complaining Carr doesn't have the help on offense again. A leak will always spring open. The formula for sustained winning with a non elite QB is an elusive one. Jared Goff, Jimmy G, and Alex Smith are a few examples of teams who have done it recently. But they all are coached by transcendent offensive minds in Andy Reid, McVay and Kyle Shanahan. Gruden can't hold any of their jock straps. Look around the league at the playoff teams. Most either have young ascending QBs still on their rookie deals, a transcendent QB capable of overcoming roster deficiencies, or legendary QBs on under the market deals trying to win on their last legs. Where does Carr fit in with that group? I agree with everything you're saying but even if we add one of those young ascending QB's on a rookie deal we will not win very many games until our defense is at least average. Even the greatest QB's of all time have struggled when their D allows 30+ so expecting someone like Carr to be able to win with a defense like that is just completely unrealistic. Edited January 13, 2021 by NYRaider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Just now, NYRaider said: I agree with everything you're saying but even if we add one of those young ascending QB's on a rookie deal we will not win very many games until our defense is at least average. Even the greatest QB's of all time have struggled when their D allows 30+ so expecting someone like Carr to be able to win with a defense like that is just completely unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, BackinBlack said: lol well you know you are losing a debate when you have to start arguing that blaming one person is the same as an entire unit. Results are a team based stat. Results are entirely made up of, which team had more points at the end of the day. Our O, is typically playing against a better D than our D. Our D is not typically playing against a better O than our O. Losing what debate? We're a long time losing franchise with posters making excuses for a QB who has 6 non winning seasons out of 7. Proof is in the results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I still don't see the logic. What do you mean a "rotating excuse". Should the Saints have gotten rid of Drew Brees in 2014-2016 when they went 7-9 for 3 years in a row? What changed? They drafted well and put together an excellent TEAM. Brees won a Super Bowl...you know that gets you more time as the starter than someone who hasn't even scratch a playoff game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: Losing what debate? We're a long time losing franchise with posters making excuses for a QB who has 6 non winning seasons out of 7. Proof is in the results Linking wins abs losses solely on a QB is about as uneducated a take as anyone can have. It’s very low brow take on waft is truly a team game. As @NYRaiderclearly points out in his well though our posts look how the best QBs in the do when their D gives up 30 in a game. That statistic right there is fantastic proof that even the best have terrible records when their D can’t stop a nose bleed. 8 and 8 with the heap of trash we call a D is a compliment as to how well our O played all year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: Brees won a Super Bowl...you know that gets you more time as the starter than someone who hasn't even scratch a playoff game Again you're clearly missing the point. You just keep citing record over and over again. It's circular logic. Do you not see the parallels with another team with an offense borderline top 5 in points per drive (that has improved steadily) and a defense 31st in points per drive or are you just intentionally choosing to ignore them? I'm starting to lean toward the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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