The good, bad, and ugly Ham sandwich vs Big Tuna

[dante9876]

7 minutes ago, holyghost said:

If Arnette and Leavitt? do not understand what zone actually is then why are they on this team? You can't do what you are saying and baby your entire roster. This is professional football, there's no call that fits if they are not professionals. Year after year I hear excuses here about how this guys is a rookie and that guy is a rookie, but every other team manages to get meaningful contributions from rookies. For us to get that it's akin to a miracle.

They ask their rookies to play to their strengths thats why. Thats the problem. Yeah rookies come in and succeed other places cause they got coaches to put them in place to do so and they are more talented. Yeah people want to believe that these young kids suppose to do and remember every responsibility in zone coverage every play. That just aint the case. It why coaches always talk about simplifying stuff. Cause making players over think is when they play slow and make mistakes.  Arnette has played what 5 or 6 nfl games, we asked him to learn guenther complicated cover 3 scheme and than in a week learn some of marnelli cover 2 scheme. Johnson to. He probably got what less than 50 snaps at safety. Offcourse they going to make mistakes. 

[holyghost]

2 hours ago, dante9876 said:

They ask their rookies to play to their strengths thats why. Thats the problem. Yeah rookies come in and succeed other places cause they got coaches to put them in place to do so and they are more talented. Yeah people want to believe that these young kids suppose to do and remember every responsibility in zone coverage every play. That just aint the case. It why coaches always talk about simplifying stuff. Cause making players over think is when they play slow and make mistakes.  Arnette has played what 5 or 6 nfl games, we asked him to learn guenther complicated cover 3 scheme and than in a week learn some of marnelli cover 2 scheme. Johnson to. He probably got what less than 50 snaps at safety. Of course they going to make mistakes. 

Man, I never like to get into slinging it with posters and call anyone out - but... this is apologist brother. We're not talking about playing to strengths here man, he had one man in his area and noone else. Cover 2, cover 3... He had one man in his zone and a primary responsibility that trumps the defensive call - Cover the receiver, let nothing behind you - do NOT allow exactly what he allowed - a man behind him allowed to get right out of bounds. How much can you dumb it down? And if a guy is incapable of playing basic zone, not saying he has to master it or be incredible, just basic zone, in the NFL, don't draft that moron.

I think that you are just wrong. We're not a good defense and won't be great for the reasons you described. That is true. But these are not the reasons we are mind numbingly bad. That seemingly bottomless floor is on the players. They lack basic professional competence. The defensive call isn't the reason Key committed one of the worst facemasks I have ever seen. Or why Abram has unnecessary moronic personal fouls, or leaves his area on key drives. Okay? These stupid stupid things we see weekly are not the result of bad calls. They're the decisions of bad players. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by holyghost

[dante9876]

8 minutes ago, holyghost said:

Man, I never like to get into slinging it with posters and call anyone out - but... this is apologist brother. We're not talking about playing to strengths here man, he had one man in his area and noone else. Cover 2, cover 3... He had one man in his zone. Cover the receiver. How much can you dumb it down? And if a guy is incapable of playing basic zone, not saying he has to master it or be incredible, just basic zone, in the NFL, don't draft that moron.

I think that you are just wrong. We're not a good defense and won't be great for the reasons you described. That is true. But these are not the reasons we are mind numbingly bad. That seemingly bottomless floor is on the players. They lack basic professional competence. The defensive call isn't the reason Key committed one of the worst facemasks I have ever seen. Or why Abram has unnecessary moronic personal fouls, or leaves his area on key drives. Okay?  

Hey I think arnette and abram was bad picks. You won't get no argument from me there. But they here now. I need coaches to limit their mistake making by putting them in good situations. We fired gunether for this very reason. 

[holyghost]

7 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

Hey I think arnette and abram was bad picks. You won't get no argument from me there. But they here now. I need coaches to limit their mistake making by putting them in good situations. We fired gunether for this very reason. 

I agree they are pretty bad picks right now. Just two idiots out there. If the coaches have to go so far out of their way that they have to alter a defense radically to hide them, then they just have to get rid of them instead. 

I really think the issue with Arnette and Abram is that they are rookies and they are the outsized clown personalities on the defense. Gruden needs to sit them down and get it in their blockheads that he needs their comic relief to come with a heavy dose of leadership, professionalism, and doing their job 100% of the time. If they are the Alphas and the personalities on the defense, then they are the leaders. If they are out there winging it every other play or not carrying their responsibilities then they ARE the problem and not the solution.

Time for Key to 100% go. Not a plus player. Collins, gone. Nassib, gone. Crosby, on thin ice. Littleton, gone. Leavitt, gone. Harris, gone. Abram, Arnette, on thin ice. Hurst, gone. McMillan, gone. Lawson, gone. Joyner, back to safety or gone. Want to get the defense together? Do this. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by holyghost

[holyghost]

How come noone else is posting about what might be the overall dumbest play in NFL history? 19 seconds left, no timeouts, 35 yard no look pass and receiver straight out of bounds to stop the clock, plus 15 yard face mask. Has anyone seem a team be any dumber on one single play? 

There's a reason why Callahan called this the dumbest team in America. It's because it is true.

[dante9876]

7 minutes ago, holyghost said:

I agree they are pretty bad picks right now. Just two idiots out there. If the coaches have to go so far out of their way that they have to alter a defense radically to hide them, then they just have to get rid of them instead. 

I really think the issue with Arnette and Abram is that they are rookies and they are the outsized clown personalities on the defense. Gruden needs to sit them down and get it in their blockheads that he needs their comic relief to come with a heavy dose of leadership, professionalism, and doing their job 100% of the time. If they are the Alphas and the personalities on the defense, then they are the leaders. If they are out there winging it every other play or not carrying their responsibilities then they ARE the problem and not the solution.

Time for Key to 100% go. Not a plus player. Collins, gone. Nassib, gone. Crosby, on thin ice. Littleton, gone. Leavitt, gone. Harris, gone. Abram, Arnette, on thin ice. Hurst, gone. McMillan, gone. Lawson, gone. Joyner, back to safety or gone. Want to get the defense together? Do this. 

I'll cut key tomorrow or at least make him inactive for next week game. Gruden is knocking on desks but not holding players accountable. He is making excuses for them in press conferences..its sad honestly. 

[holyghost]

2 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

I'll cut key tomorrow or at least make him inactive for next week game. Gruden is knocking on desks but not holding players accountable. He is making excuses for them in press conferences..its sad honestly. 

This is the first thing I thought when I saw the play - cut Key tomorrow. You literally can't go anywhere near the QB'S HEAD ON ANY PLAY IN ANY PART OF ANY GAME, EVER. Much less try to completely rip his head off with 19 seconds left. Those 15 yards were brutal. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by holyghost

[Blazer026]

Moreau played two offensive snaps last night. I didn’t mind the Witten signing at the time, because I thought we’d be easing Moreau back in, but damn. He was good for us in the red zone last year, why is old man Witten stealing his snaps? 

[holyghost]

4 minutes ago, Blazer026 said:

Moreau played two offensive snaps last night. I didn’t mind the Witten signing at the time, because I thought we’d be easing Moreau back in, but damn. He was good for us in the red zone last year, why is old man Witten stealing his snaps? 

Another head scratcher. Every time Witten gets the ball I think to myself A) Why are we wasting a pretty good #2 TE on the bench, B)Why in the world are they throwing to Witten, he can't run. A once great player, but he can't run anymore. 

It's along the same lines as the "where the heck is Ruggs" conversation. He's literally the reason that put us over the top in beating the Chiefs, and a ghost since then. And not by his fault because they stopped taking shots with him.

For that one fleeting moment we were a dangerous and aggressive team. If we only played and coached like that every week we wouldn't have tanked the damn season.

[raidr4life]

[Darbsk]

12 hours ago, holyghost said:

Man, I never like to get into slinging it with posters and call anyone out - but... this is apologist brother. We're not talking about playing to strengths here man, he had one man in his area and noone else. Cover 2, cover 3... He had one man in his zone and a primary responsibility that trumps the defensive call - Cover the receiver, let nothing behind you - do NOT allow exactly what he allowed - a man behind him allowed to get right out of bounds. How much can you dumb it down? And if a guy is incapable of playing basic zone, not saying he has to master it or be incredible, just basic zone, in the NFL, don't draft that moron.

I think that you are just wrong. We're not a good defense and won't be great for the reasons you described. That is true. But these are not the reasons we are mind numbingly bad. That seemingly bottomless floor is on the players. They lack basic professional competence. The defensive call isn't the reason Key committed one of the worst facemasks I have ever seen. Or why Abram has unnecessary moronic personal fouls, or leaves his area on key drives. Okay? These stupid stupid things we see weekly are not the result of bad calls. They're the decisions of bad players. 

Agree with this entirely. We draft scheme specific players then haven't put them so far in position to succeed but any competent player should realise what he can't do on that specific play, its not as if the receiver put on a great double move like Ruggs did against the Jets, the receiver just ambled up the sideline. This is a top 20 pick we're talking about not a practice squad player thrust into action due to injuries. 🤔😬

[holyghost]

From Gruden's own mouth - "The most horrific play I've ever been associated with"

Told ya it was one of the worst plays in the history of football. I have never seen a bigger implosion on one play in all the time I have been watching the Raiders.

[Frankie2Gunz]

On 12/27/2020 at 2:19 PM, holyghost said:

This is the first thing I thought when I saw the play - cut Key tomorrow. You literally can't go anywhere near the QB'S HEAD ON ANY PLAY IN ANY PART OF ANY GAME, EVER. Much less try to completely rip his head off with 19 seconds left. Those 15 yards were brutal. 

I agree and Key is a bum so nothing lost by cutting him.  The whole D needs to be revamped and it's not some lazy excuse like a bunch of posters here think.  "It's the coaches fault" is such a lame excuse and puts nothing on the players.  You brought up very good points and you're right about Arnette.  He is a 24 year old rookie and if he doesn't understand how to play a basic zone D he doesn't belong on the football field let alone being a 1st round pick.  That is football 101 for a CB, while it may not be his strength he should have learned how to play zone in HS.  Completely inexcusable.  

[big_palooka]

8 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I agree and Key is a bum so nothing lost by cutting him.  The whole D needs to be revamped and it's not some lazy excuse like a bunch of posters here think.  "It's the coaches fault" is such a lame excuse and puts nothing on the players.  You brought up very good points and you're right about Arnette.  He is a 24 year old rookie and if he doesn't understand how to play a basic zone D he doesn't belong on the football field let alone being a 1st round pick.  That is football 101 for a CB, while it may not be his strength he should have learned how to play zone in HS.  Completely inexcusable.  

It's talent, but also coaching. The defense has been a problem for 18 years. Guys like Arnette and Mullen had better defensive coaches in college than they do here.

[Dessie]

1 minute ago, big_palooka said:

It's talent, but also coaching. The defense has been a problem for 18 years. Guys like Arnette and Mullen had better defensive coaches in college than they do here.

This. Coaching is a huge problem for our team. Talent can be improved with good coaching, Patriots have shown that. 

On the secondary the lack of veterans back there is a huge problem. Abram, Mullen, Arnette, Johnson, are all early in their careers, can’t help but think that play doesn’t happen if we had a C-Wood type leader back there.