Dcash4 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Our 10 year C and 17 year QB combined for 4 turnovers in our first 6 possession, one hand delivering a Browns TD on the first snap of the game. Being unprepared ≠ under performing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Watch the defense and tell me they were prepared for the Browns offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Displayname Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 3 hours ago, CKSteeler said: Watch the defense and tell me they were prepared for the Browns offense. IMO, The defense can be summed up with one play on how they preformed. When Hunt dragged guys into the end zone. They waited for him to make contact, especially Spillane. They played scared and really soft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcash4 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 7 hours ago, CKSteeler said: Watch the defense and tell me they were prepared for the Browns offense. Short field (turnover) and a bad play by Hilton following a motion and a just god awful tackle attempt by Edmunds on a third down play that turned into 6 also isn’t on preparation. Repeat: 7 hours ago, Dcash4 said: Being unprepared ≠ under performing There are games where you can see pretty clearly we were not prepared or are being severely outcoached. But this isn’t one of them. Snap over the head, interception, bad coverage and an awful tackle attempt, a stupid Fichtner moment to run the same play from the same formation in the same situation off the same motion, a good browns drive (hey, it happens), another interception and a super short field. 28-0. That’s not on preparation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSteelers56 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 10 hours ago, CKSteeler said: I feel like if the fans can easily gameplan against it, to NFL D Coordinators it must be a cake walk. Short pass, short pass, deep incompletion, punt. Don’t rush the passer, just sit at the LOS and get your hands up. Press the WRs. If you get beat deep, Ben will miss it. Easy peasy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 On 1/28/2021 at 10:40 PM, Dcash4 said: Some of you are arguing he is making $19m (his cash amount) some of you are arguing his cap number ($41m). None of these things are what he signed for. All of these things are able to be manipulated. When they are, once again, manipulated - some of you will argue it’s not enough, some will argue he’s a saint. Its dumb. You seem to be criticizing the conflicting arguments rather than each individual argument. Im arguing against his cap hit, which is $41m. Thats all I really care about when it comes to this teams ability to maneuver under the cap. Obviously it can be "manipulated", but by how much and by what means? If they extend him with no new money and it reduces his pay significantly this season....so be it. I will give Ben credit and believe his desire to come back to win. If he only takes a small cut that just barely allows us to make a small move or two, then I will just see it as him wanting to come back to play, but the money was still the top reason. You can look at it through whatever lens you choose. Obviously peoples feelings on Ben sticking around are going to affect how they view everything. I personally dont think its a good idea for Ben or the team that he is playing next year. Am I saying we would be better off in 2021 without Ben? No way....but I do think its best for the team looking past 2021. He doesnt have much to offer anymore and we dont have the team to really allow him to just be a game manager. On top of which, I dont think he is a good game manager anymore, anyway. This is about more than just a cap hit for the 2021 season. Its about the opportunity cost of keeping him around another year. At best, I see us as an 8-10 win team in 2021 under Ben with either no playoffs or another early exit....thus the title of the thread....spinning tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR43 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 My newest mock: 1. Samuel Cosmi - OT - Texas 2. Josh Myers - C - Ohio State 3. Kenneth Gainwell - RB - Memphis 4a. Bobby Brown III - NT - Texas A&M 4b. Olaijah Griffin - CB - USC 5. Ihmir Smith-Marsette - WR - Iowa 6a. Malcolm Koonce - EDGE - Buffalo 6b. Max Duffy- Punter - Kentucky 7a. Tommy Tremble- TE - Notre Dame 7b. Tyree Gillespie - Safety - Missouri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcash4 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/31/2021 at 4:24 AM, 43M said: You seem to be criticizing the conflicting arguments rather than each individual argument. Im criticizing that both arguments made in regards of greed are equally dumb. Just say "I dont like Ben" or "I like Ben!"...because centering the conversation around his cap his or his cash flow in 2021 is either ignoring or not understanding the actual situation of it. But when it comes to bias, people are happy to run to their respective corners and burrow themselves in. On 1/31/2021 at 4:24 AM, 43M said: Im arguing against his cap hit, which is $41m. Thats all I really care about when it comes to this teams ability to maneuver under the cap. If they extend him with no new money and it reduces his pay significantly this season....so be it. I will give Ben credit and believe his desire to come back to win. If he only takes a small cut that just barely allows us to make a small move or two, then I will just see it as him wanting to come back to play, but the money was still the top reason. I just dont understand a lot here and it seems like hedging to be able to hate either way. So the cap is the only issue? Because, well, that's going to be remedied and you are going to be very happy! You will give Ben credit for allowing an extension where they will just do some accounting to lower the hit, but he keeps all his money.....but if he ACTUALLY takes a pay cut and its not big enough to your liking...then you have a problem because it was all about the money. When he gives back money, bad! When he keeps it all, good! See where the issues with this conversation lie and why I continue to say its stupid? And that's even beyond my usual "why the hell do we care about another man's money?". And all the while we hate or love Ben for his money, we ignore the actual issue that created all of this...that Pandemic thing. Sit down and think about the situation when we start blaming Ben and his cap hit. The salary cap goes up nearly $10M each year for the past 8 years. We are currently $30M over the $175m number that the pandemic crunched us to as a floor in 2021. That's about $20M lower than the current years cap, so adding another $10M on top of that and we are even based on past knowledge of where the cap would be....So Ben's cap hit doesn't matter. Then add in restructuring, extensions, cuts....we are in a great space without ever having to touch Ben's cap. So, without the pandemic, this isnt even a conversation we need to entertain....though, we probably still would because they would most likely make some change to his cap to help even further. Everyone gets so caught up in hating on Ben for his Cap hit which 1) is the Steelers problem for their restructruing (which isnt even a problem) and 2) the pandemics fault for crushing the cap potential. So that's why I find the conversation dumb. People dont know what they are talking about, they hedge their bets to be angry or happy regardless of what happens, and they direct their anger at the wrong things. As far as the rest, I don't really care to argue. Personally, I'm cool with "spinning tires" to 8-10 wins and a playoff birth, because the history tells you that "rebuilding" doesn't work. Give me the opportunity to field a team that can compete and let's go from there. This defense, IMO, is good enough for 8-8. I don't see a savior QB class next year. I see more QB's becoming available on the market in the next 2 or so years. I'm not sure why we would take a year off from trying. If the bottom falls out, it will fall out naturally and even then its all hoping and praying you get a class with a good crop of potential to really make it worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/30/2021 at 9:59 AM, Dcash4 said: Short field (turnover) and a bad play by Hilton following a motion and a just god awful tackle attempt by Edmunds on a third down play that turned into 6 also isn’t on preparation. So Hilton looks lost following Browns motion. Has nothing to do with preparation. The entire defense gets caught off guard on the third down, and it's not on preparation. On 1/30/2021 at 9:59 AM, Dcash4 said: Snap over the head, interception, bad coverage and an awful tackle attempt, a stupid Fichtner moment to run the same play from the same formation in the same situation off the same motion, a good browns drive (hey, it happens), another interception and a super short field. 28-0. This follows you saying the team wasn't being out coached. The interception - the Browns completely had the screen snuffed out before the play started. Then you cite one of the biggest coaching blunders of the day (sadly, not the biggest) in the Steelers going back to Watt on another short yardage situation. Because the team came in with such a great plan for that moment that they thought repeating the same exact play was a great idea (and Tomlin signed off on it). You then dismiss another defensive collapse as just a good Browns drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Oooo @Dcash4i really disagree that the only reason Bens cap hit is an issue is the pandemic and what the cap ended up with. It’s a problem because before the Stafford-Goff trade it was the biggest cap hit QB wise with bottom 1/3 starter production. The issue is the value of the production vs the percent of the cap it takes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcash4 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 39 minutes ago, CKSteeler said: So Hilton looks lost following Browns motion. Has nothing to do with preparation. The entire defense gets caught off guard on the third down, and it's not on preparation. This sentence makes me believe you have never really played. That's not trying to be a slight, but yes....absolutely players can do the wrong things with a proper plan in place. This isnt to say we had a great plan, but you are placing ALL the blame at the feet of Tomlin when its pretty clear early on the players fell flat on their faces (which, I am sure you will just pile on Tomlin too). 40 minutes ago, CKSteeler said: he interception - the Browns completely had the screen snuffed out before the play started. I mean common, man. Even your hatred of Tomlin can see through that the other teams are capable of doing things too right? Even with a brilliant plan the other teams can make plays....you do get that? The best laid plans do not bat 100% all day. Even inside of that, so the Browns sniff the screen....and Ben forgets to do what the teach grade school kids to do and kill it at the feet? I have never had a coach who taught me to float it over the middle and hope for the best. Even if the play is sniffed, kill it. It was FIRST AND TEN. This is on Ben, no matter how you wanna swing it. 44 minutes ago, CKSteeler said: Steelers going back to Watt on another short yardage situation. Because the team came in with such a great plan for that moment that they thought repeating the same exact play was a great idea (and Tomlin signed off on it) Ahh, yes. Having not played confirmed. Yes, I am sure the plan of the week was for Randy to run the same play every 3rd and 1 and Tomlin gave the blessing. Seriously, think through how situation game planning is practiced, designed, and called. If you dont know, I am happy to help.....but this call was on Randy, and that's what Randy's Flaws were -- that he ran plays and not an offense. If you wanna have a conversation regarding Tomlins handeling of the coaching staff I am fully on board, because that's what his biggest weakness has been IMO. But to blame one off calls in situational football on the Head Coach who doesn't call offense....yeah, no thats just wrong and bias induced finger pointing. 47 minutes ago, CKSteeler said: You then dismiss another defensive collapse as just a good Browns drive. Yes, a professional football team is incapable of doing quality things because CK said so. I do apologize, I should not expect other PROFESSIONAL, PLAYOFF NFL teams do be able to do anything....because the proper plan would have made it so they get 0 yards and 0 points. lol. Sure. I hope you get I am not signing off on us having a great plan or perfect preparation. But we played 75% of that game in a situation you do not prepare for and the other 25% was surrounded by some god awful individual performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dcash4 said: Im criticizing that both arguments made in regards of greed are equally dumb. Just say "I dont like Ben" or "I like Ben!"...because centering the conversation around his cap his or his cash flow in 2021 is either ignoring or not understanding the actual situation of it. But when it comes to bias, people are happy to run to their respective corners and burrow themselves in. Believe what you want. Claiming I dont know the situation is just you trying to avoid having to make an actual rebuttal with any real thought. I dont like Ben....but thats not what this is about. Ive never particularly liked Ben, but I never claimed he should be cut or traded until this year. I even defended him numerous years when other Steeler fans were trying to claim it was time to move on. This is the first year where I am really on board with that, for numerous reasons. Quote I just dont understand a lot here and it seems like hedging to be able to hate either way. So the cap is the only issue? Because, well, that's going to be remedied and you are going to be very happy! If he is taking a substantial pay cut, so be it. If its just pushing money into the future but him not taking much of a pay cut....its pretty obvious why he is coming back. Yeah...blah blah...its dumb.... We get it. Quote You will give Ben credit for allowing an extension where they will just do some accounting to lower the hit, but he keeps all his money.....but if he ACTUALLY takes a pay cut and its not big enough to your liking...then you have a problem because it was all about the money. When he gives back money, bad! When he keeps it all, good! He isnt worth the money he is making. Not even close. Thats all it comes down to. In reality, he should probably retire. He cant throw a decent deep ball anymore. He can barely throw accurately past 10 yards with any consistency. He is afraid to get hit. He wont run a QB sneak. He doesnt move as well in the pocket as he used to. Everything that made Big Ben....Big Ben, is pretty much gone....yet you want to ridicule everyone who thinks he is laughably overpaid? Okay... Quote See where the issues with this conversation lie and why I continue to say its stupid? And that's even beyond my usual "why the hell do we care about another man's money?". The fact that you think I care about BEN's money shows you still dont get it. Ben has made $200mil in his career. Good for him. Have fun with it. Its the money he is making as it relates to how it affects the team. You can keep claiming they are going to decrease his cap hit....but we are already well aware of that. Its HOW they are going to do it and to what extent that concerns some of us. Quote And all the while we hate or love Ben for his money, we ignore the actual issue that created all of this...that Pandemic thing. Sit down and think about the situation when we start blaming Ben and his cap hit. The salary cap goes up nearly $10M each year for the past 8 years. We are currently $30M over the $175m number that the pandemic crunched us to as a floor in 2021. That's about $20M lower than the current years cap, so adding another $10M on top of that and we are even based on past knowledge of where the cap would be....So Ben's cap hit doesn't matter. Then add in restructuring, extensions, cuts....we are in a great space without ever having to touch Ben's cap. So, without the pandemic, this isnt even a conversation we need to entertain....though, we probably still would because they would most likely make some change to his cap to help even further. If you think Steeler fans would be okay with Ben's cap hit even if the cap increased, I dont know that to tell you. The pandemic and the subsequent cap reduction doesnt help, but I would still say Ben is drastically overpaid either way. Quote Everyone gets so caught up in hating on Ben for his Cap hit which 1) is the Steelers problem for their restructruing (which isnt even a problem) and 2) the pandemics fault for crushing the cap potential. Okay, this is where Im done debating this with you, because its clear that the bulk of you argument revolves around "You just hate Ben". I dont hate Ben. I dont particularly LIKE Ben, but I dont HATE him. Ben has always had flaws that have hurt us, but he at least used to have enough redeeming qualities that made him a successful franchise QB. Those redeeming qualities are pretty much all gone, and he is now more of a liability than an asset. I personally believe the team would be better off LONG TERM moving on....as opposed to keeping him around another season (or more) and holding on to a QB who doesnt have what it takes to take this team all the way anymore. ONE LAST TIME....the opportunity costs of retaining him are why I want him gone, or at the very least, a MAJOR pay cut. Edited February 1, 2021 by 43M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Dcash4 said: That's not trying to be a slight, but yes....absolutely players can do the wrong things with a proper plan in place. This isnt to say we had a great plan, but you are placing ALL the blame at the feet of Tomlin when its pretty clear early on the players fell flat on their faces (which, I am sure you will just pile on Tomlin too). I have this crazy belief that when all the players look unprepared, the head coach probably deserves some blame for that. Maybe there's a pattern there. Call me crazy, but then I question what would be taken as evidence that Tomlin didn't have his players ready or wasn't putting them in positions to succeed. The Browns snuffing out plays before they start and his defenders looking confused by the motions and play fakes the Browns thrown at them repeatedly apparently doesn't meet whatever standard you're using. 1 hour ago, Dcash4 said: Even with a brilliant plan the other teams can make plays....you do get that? The best laid plans do not bat 100% all day. Tomlin's defense forced like 5 punts all game. They scored a TD on every other single drive. When all 11 guys on defense look lost, maybe it's a bit more than just bad performances. 1 hour ago, Dcash4 said: Yes, I am sure the plan of the week was for Randy to run the same play every 3rd and 1 and Tomlin gave the blessing. The excuse making for the head coach continues. Not only does Tomlin have the authority to nix a play call in any specific situation, he has confirmed publicly that he does just that. This is so clearly a case of the coaches putting the players in a position to fail that it's insulting I have to respond to it to a serious manner in a post littered with snide little remarks about whether I've actually played or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcash4 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, warfelg said: The issue is the value of the production vs the percent of the cap it takes. I dont have any sort of problem with looking at it that way, but it keeps coming back to how selfish he must be because he will get paid. This thread was opened with how Ben was a selfish prick for saying he had 1 year left on his contract....a contract that, when signed, was in line with league standards and his level of play. The leagues financials are built on the next guy is the best guy not the best guy is the next guy. There's not one player in this league who is not over paid or under paid. (well, maybe Mahomes is still underpaid...) But the pandemic is what affects that percentage and it's going to change in a matter of weeks when the salary cap is set and we adjust Ben's contract. That $30M hit HAS to be put into some perspective. It's the difference between Ben currently being 23% of the cap vs being 20% -- which is about a $6.5M swing. If we are nickels and dimes over the cap after a regular season and cap growth, no ones talking about how selfish that prick Ben is because of a cap hit. We would (and will!) restructure, extend, and cut and be right where we always are. So if its only about the percentage vs production and you don't like him at 23%, what are your thoughts at 17% after they adjust his salary to around the $30M number and that puts him behind or in line with guys like Ryan, Goff, Cousins, Tannahill, Wentz, and Brady? What if we see his cap hit lowered and the cap stays flat and he hits the 15% mark? Is that more palatable? Because those things are realistic and neither of them have him taking one cent less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said: I dont have any sort of problem with looking at it that way, but it keeps coming back to how selfish he must be because he will get paid. This thread was opened with how Ben was a selfish prick for saying he had 1 year left on his contract....a contract that, when signed, was in line with league standards and his level of play. The leagues financials are built on the next guy is the best guy not the best guy is the next guy. There's not one player in this league who is not over paid or under paid. (well, maybe Mahomes is still underpaid...) But the pandemic is what affects that percentage and it's going to change in a matter of weeks when the salary cap is set and we adjust Ben's contract. That $30M hit HAS to be put into some perspective. It's the difference between Ben currently being 23% of the cap vs being 20% -- which is about a $6.5M swing. If we are nickels and dimes over the cap after a regular season and cap growth, no ones talking about how selfish that prick Ben is because of a cap hit. We would (and will!) restructure, extend, and cut and be right where we always are. So if its only about the percentage vs production and you don't like him at 23%, what are your thoughts at 17% after they adjust his salary to around the $30M number and that puts him behind or in line with guys like Ryan, Goff, Cousins, Tannahill, Wentz, and Brady? What if we see his cap hit lowered and the cap stays flat and he hits the 15% mark? Is that more palatable? Because those things are realistic and neither of them have him taking one cent less. Biggest thing to unpack #1: 20% of the cap is a huge amount when the production isn't worth 20% of your cap. I don't care if it's 23% or 20%. That's 1/5th the spending power you have in a given year to a player who isn't worth that to your team. Especially with the free agents we have and the holes that we have. #2: If they could lower his cap hit into the 15-17% range it would still be top 15 QB money, which Ben isn't worth on your cap right now because of what you need around him. In reality the percent of the cap based on percentage area he fits into right now is under that his dead money would be. #3: Extending and restructuring Ben would be the single dumbest of the dumb ideas Colbert will ever have. At best you will end up getting 3 more years of crap QB play for more than he's worth. At worst you will end up with $10mil+ dead money hits to make 1 single season work best. #4: This isn't about coming at someones money. It's about looking at the stark reality of the situation. If Ben wants to continue to play....good for him. But he cannot continue to be compensated in terms of cap hit and years added like he's worth more than a year to year move. I rather live with a 1 year $41mil cap hit than extend him 2 more years just to move money around when who knows what will happen with the cap in future years. It sounds like the NFL wants to only go down to $190mil, then smooth the cap the next 3 years, basically borrowing against future caps to prevent a $20+mil decline in the cap. If the cap is going to be smoothed over like that, then pushing Ben into years past this season is a mistake. #5: No, his contract was not "in line" with the next guy. Most of the players getting extended at the same time were at least a decade younger. Ben and Drew both did the same thing in wanting to be paid for past accomplishments, and they got it. Then both teams made the total dumb-backside moves of restructuring a player in the final hole of their career to keep the team together. #6: Yes I think it's a touch selfish for him to suggest he can help retain guys by getting an extension, because it will almost always come with new money somehow, it gives him the ability to play the Brett Favre game (oh I'm so old, I don't have it....sike I'm back baby!). If he believes that he's not done then he should say that he's not done, but he doesn't want a team he loves to be hurt by appeasing his contract and take a cut. So yes, getting an extension that ties him to making the $19mil he's guaranteed this year (between roster bonus and base salary) is selfish if it impacts the Steelers future cap years. ------------------------------------------------- I can't reiterate enough how against extending Ben I am. Sorry. But he's 38 years old. He isn't built like Brady and Brees to play until he's in his 40's. He's got arthritis in his knee. As @43Msaid he's lost the things that made him Big Ben. His arm isn't the same. He can throw it hard in tight spots, but he can't throw it deep reliably. Heck, the offense almost looked better under Rudolph in week 17 than it did under Ben the 5 weeks before. Mull over that one for a bit because Rudolph sucks. If Ben was willing to take a pay cut to make the things he wants to happen then cool. Even if he gave up $5mil, that's cool with me. But if he wants to see the deal extended to make it work, I let him play out the final year and work with other guys on ways to lower the cap, or I just do what I can to make it through the year and say sorry to Ben. But under no circumstances do I commit any cap to someone who may or maynot keep playing. I'd leave year to year deals on the table for him after this. 1 year - $10mil, 50% guaranteed after this deal, and if he doesn't take it by 1 week before FA, sorry Ben but we don't have a roster spot. Look, Ben's been great for us. Honestly, it's been an awesome 17 years. But it's got to close at some point. And I'm not going to do anything in a way that can hurt us from moving onto the next era of Steelers football, and having a $10+ million anchor on your cap does exactly that. Sorry @Dcash4.....Ben's just not worth it anymore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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