Goff’s future with the Rams

[BStanRamFan]

5 minutes ago, JonStark said:

Yeah, but Goff is not Watson. No one thinks they are on the same level. Watson is unobtainable for the Rams right now. 

We aren't going to go out and get a QB that can take over a game right now. The best thing we can do is surround our current QB who has proven he can win with talent. 

The fun part about the Watson situation is that he is completely in the driver seat with his no trade clause. He makes a list of teams he will waive it for and only they compete. It limits how out of hand the bidding can get.

So for example, if his list is only LAR and SF. Then we are bidding with them and their assets vs the Jets and Miami who would/cold offer more. It's admittedly a long shot, but he can be very specific with his destinations and I don't see why LA wouldn't be preferrable: Win-now mode, best market for him if he wants to be a star, talent at skill positions, offensive minded HC. etc.

Or HOU can play hard ball. And Watson just sits out. Further ruining HOU's chances with ANY free agents in the future.

Edited January 26, 2021 by BStanRamFan

[JonStark]

5 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

The fun part about the Watson situation is that he is completely in the driver seat with his no trade clause. He makes a list of teams he will waive it for and only they compete. It limits how out of hand the bidding can get.

So for example, if his list is only LAR and SF. Then we are betting with them and their assets vs the Jets and Miami who would/cold offer more. It's admittedly a long shot, but he can be very specific with his destinations and I don't see why LA wouldn't be preferrable: Win-now mode, best market for him if he wants to be a star, talent at skill positions, offensive minded HC. etc.

Or HOU can play hard ball. And Watson just sits out. Further ruining HOU's chances with ANY free agents in the future.

It would have to literally be only LA for us to have a chance, and odds are that what we have to offer wouldn't be enough anyway. He's an elite QB entering his prime. I'd rather just keep him on the roster and have a shot at working it out instead of accepting 50 cents on the dollar. 

Not to mention if there's even one other team, they would outbid us pretty easily. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by JonStark

[BStanRamFan]

Just now, JonStark said:

It would have to literally be only LA for us to have a chance, and odds are that what we have to offer wouldn't be enough anyway. He's an elite QB entering his prime. I'd rather just keep him on the roster and have a shot at working it out instead of accepting 50 cents on the dollar. 

Goff + two 1sts+Darious Williams(pick up his tender) would be a reasonable return for HOU. It's a matter of comparing that to other offers, but like you said, his list would have to be extremely limited to give us a chance because NYJ/MIA would blow us out of the water with picks and cheaper QB prospect(Tua/Darnold).

 

[StLunatic88]

53 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

The fun part about the Watson situation is that he is completely in the driver seat with his no trade clause. He makes a list of teams he will waive it for and only they compete. It limits how out of hand the bidding can get.

In a small way he has control like that. In a much larger way the Texans have even more control, because he JUST signed the deal, they have him locked in for like 6 or 7 years when you factor in the ability to Franchise him (or something similar that will still he likely in the next CBA)

The reason the NBA guys can force this stuff, is because of the shorter contracts most of theM have been signing. And the team has no way to keep them (aside for the more dollars than other teams, which hasn’t been a real factor for many of them)

The Texans can literally just sit on him. He can hold out all he wants but they don’t have to pay him any of the money if he does that. They are in a bad spot QB wise if they trade him right now, so it’s not all that much worse to just wait this out. Very few players have EVER withstood against a Franchise (it’s basically just Carson Palmer)

[StLunatic88]

2 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

It was an uncharacteristic game for them compared to the rest of the season. And our best player was a 60% health. It's an outlier. It happens. Timing was horrible though. Having a QB who can put points on the board when this happens would be welcomed. A 4-fingered Goff couldn't do that, but possibly a 5-fingered Goff with a healthy Kupp.

But the other thing to call out, beside the injuries of some of our most important players, this team was not designed to win like that.

Had nothing to do with Goff or any other singular player. McVay made the choice, as far back as last year, to make this a defensive team that leans on the running game more than what he put together in 2017-18. Again I don’t know how he continues to go without being questioned on this stuff, but we do not have any semblance of the offense that we saw in 2018. And that’s not because of some huge regression by our QB (we literally saw the capacity to make those throws and be mobile in the Packer game) but it was a conscious effort to focus on having the dominant defense, and I truly believe he neglected the offense for the past 18 months. 

[BStanRamFan]

6 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

In a small way he has control like that. In a much larger way the Texans have even more control, because he JUST signed the deal, they have him locked in for like 6 or 7 years when you factor in the ability to Franchise him (or something similar that will still he likely in the next CBA)

The reason the NBA guys can force this stuff, is because of the shorter contracts most of theM have been signing. And the team has no way to keep them (aside for the more dollars than other teams, which hasn’t been a real factor for many of them)

The Texans can literally just sit on him. He can hold out all he wants but they don’t have to pay him any of the money if he does that. They are in a bad spot QB wise if they trade him right now, so it’s not all that much worse to just wait this out. Very few players have EVER withstood against a Franchise (it’s basically just Carson Palmer)

You're right. It would be rather unprecedented for Watson to sit-out and take a stand against the franchise. They could fine him $50K per day he misses and there's the potential he could have to pay back his signing bonus. I think Watson to the Rams is very unlikely, but I'll put it at a whopping 3% just given Snead's creativity and history of getting large deals done with big named guys. We would have a hard time competing with some of the other teams he would likely put on his short list unless we're willing to part with Ramsey or Donald. I'm not at all, but who knows. 

[StLunatic88]

Just now, BStanRamFan said:

You're right. It would be rather unprecedented for Watson to sit-out and take a stand against the franchise. They could fine him $50K per day he misses and there's the potential he could have to pay back his signing bonus. I think Watson to the Rams is very unlikely, but I'll put it at a whopping 3% just given Snead's creativity and history of getting large deals done with big named guys. We would have a hard time competing with some of the other teams he would likely put on his short list unless we're willing to part with Ramsey or Donald. I'm not at all, but who knows. 

Yea my view isn’t Rams specific, I just don’t think they will be trading him at all. He can make all the stink he wants, but you just don’t trade arguably a top 3-5 QB in their prime. 

I mean Russell Wilson is barely getting input for his OC, not sure why Watson thinks he should be getting more say than anything else. I know there’s more to it than that (they “lied” to him and what not) but what would you all say if Goff said just months after signing his new deal, just off a Super Bowl appearance, and wanted to be a voice in the room for the new FO position or Coordinator? You all would have laughed him out of the room

[BStanRamFan]

4 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

But the other thing to call out, beside the injuries of some of our most important players, this team was not designed to win like that.

Had nothing to do with Goff or any other singular player. McVay made the choice, as far back as last year, to make this a defensive team that leans on the running game more than what he put together in 2017-18. Again I don’t know how he continues to go without being questioned on this stuff, but we do not have any semblance of the offense that we saw in 2018. And that’s not because of some huge regression by our QB (we literally saw the capacity to make those throws and be mobile in the Packer game) but it was a conscious effort to focus on having the dominant defense, and I truly believe he neglected the offense for the past 18 months. 

We used our first two draft picks on a RB and WR. The year before we added Henderson. We signed Kupp long term and restructured Woods. The lack of a deep threat I think plays into your assessment of being run centric, but I don't think its neglect of the offense, more so a different direction. We averaged 23.6 PPG (19th) which is very poor given the standards we set for McVay. 

I think Goff's regression is the main factor for our offense not resembling 2018. He simply played better in 17-18 vs 19-20 and turned the ball over much less. I give him a pass for 2019 because of how poor the O-line played that year, but 2020 there was really no excuses outside of a lack of a true deep threat. 

[StLunatic88]

10 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

We used our first two draft picks on a RB and WR. The year before we added Henderson. We signed Kupp long term and restructured Woods. The lack of a deep threat I think plays into your assessment of being run centric, but I don't think its neglect of the offense, more so a different direction. We averaged 23.6 PPG (19th) which is very poor given the standards we set for McVay. 

I don’t mean necessarily not giving the weapons or personnel that is needed on offense (although the deep threat and OL depth deficiencies would point to that) I’m talking about McVay’s focus on the offense. He has not been nearly as creative since the Super Bowl. I’m not sure we’ve closed out a game with a 4 min drill since 2018. I know we haven’t had a commanding or statement win from kickoff to whistle in a while.

Some have pointed out, that may have been a big factor for going with Morris as the DC other than a young guy like Pleasant. That allows him to hand over all defensive responsibilities and get back to his bread and butter.

[BStanRamFan]

1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said:

I don’t mean necessarily not giving the weapons or personnel that is needed on offense (although the deep threat and OL depth deficiencies would point to that) I’m talking about McVay’s focus on the offense. He has not been nearly as creative since the Super Bowl. I’m not sure we’ve closed out a game with a 4 min drill since 2018. I know we haven’t had a commanding or statement win from kickoff to whistle in a while.

Some have pointed out, that may have been a big factor for going with Morris as the DC other than a young guy like Pleasant. That allows him to hand over all defensive responsibilities and get back to his bread and butter.

Hiring Kevin O'Connell as OC was done for exactly that purpose; to give another voice and another set of eyes to the offense other than his. I'll agree the play calling during the season was fairly similar to years past, although we saw a slight uptick in 12 personnel vs 11, which was intentional based on how we finished 2019 with Higbee. Seeing Akers taking snaps in the divisional game at QB was creative along with the hook and ladder for 2pt conversion. He seemed excited to draw up new plays for Wolford in his solo start; perhaps why he was so excited to see Wolford get action because it sparked his creative interest. With Goff, he the playbook is pretty much what it has been for the last 4 years and there is ALOT of tape on it. How many times can we call a WR screen or end around that gets sniffed out? lol 

[JonStark]

6 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

How many times can we call a WR screen or end around that gets sniffed out? lol 

I still don't understand how you keep attributing things like this to Goff. That's a Mcvay problem. He's not perfect like a lot of fans want him to be. He's great for sure, but he does have his faults just like Goff does. 

You keep saying "I think Mcvay doesn't trust Goff" or "It seems like Goff is limited", but there isn't any actual proof of that. What if Mcvay just likes WR screens and thinks they will work at that time? 

[BStanRamFan]

Just now, JonStark said:

I still don't understand how you keep attributing things like this to Goff. That's a Mcvay problem. He's not perfect like a lot of fans want him to be. He's great for sure, but he does have his faults just like Goff does. 

You keep saying "I think Mcvay doesn't trust Goff" or "It seems like Goff is limited", but there isn't any actual proof of that. What if Mcvay just likes WR screens and thinks they will work at that time? 

Oh no the play calling of the screens/end arounds is on McVay. Sorry if that came off wrong.

There is actually alot of proof of the trust factor that McVay has for Goff. 

"This season, the Rams have faced 16 third downs where they needed at least 15 yards. On 10 of those plays, they threw it. Six times, they ran it. Based on Stathead’s play tracking, not a single one of those 10 passes was a deep throw, and all of them were classified as “short.”

 

"Even on second down when the Rams need at least 15 yards, McVay favors short passes and runs. On 19 plays where the Rams needed 15-25 yards, they ran it six times, which is tied for fifth-most, and only one of Goff’s 13 passes was classified as “deep.”

McVay simply doesn’t give Goff the chance to take shots on second- or third-and-long. He’d rather throw a quick screen to avoid disaster, which is an obvious sign of distrust in his quarterback."

 

Those are situations that I’m not worried about being predictable there. I just wanted to take the points,” he said. “Both those situations the last couple of weeks were third-and-long. Didn’t want to do anything where you’ve got a chance for a good reward and a low risk in those situations. It’s kind of like a two-minute drive-starter. That’s a big alert for the screen. I’m OK with that because in those two specific situations you’re referring to, it was more about, ‘All right, let’s not turn the ball over or go backwards at all, we’ll take the three.’ A little bit more of a conservative approach in both of those situations, but sometimes those are decisions we have to make as coaches.”

 

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2020/12/23/rams-sean-mcvay-jared-goff-trust-stats/ This is a good read regarding McVay trusting Goff.

[Flounch]

4 hours ago, JonStark said:

It's funny how people just conveniently forget about this part. Everyone saying we can't win with Goff, but he wasn't the problem in the game we got sent home in (broken thumb and all). If the defense showed up that game, Goff would likely have another NCFCG on his resume. 

 

It's funny how people forget the games where we lose  against the Niners, Jets and Hawks for the NFC West title and a chance to play at home in PO. 

[JonStark]

4 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

Oh no the play calling of the screens/end arounds is on McVay. Sorry if that came off wrong.

There is actually alot of proof of the trust factor that McVay has for Goff. 

"This season, the Rams have faced 16 third downs where they needed at least 15 yards. On 10 of those plays, they threw it. Six times, they ran it. Based on Stathead’s play tracking, not a single one of those 10 passes was a deep throw, and all of them were classified as “short.”

 

"Even on second down when the Rams need at least 15 yards, McVay favors short passes and runs. On 19 plays where the Rams needed 15-25 yards, they ran it six times, which is tied for fifth-most, and only one of Goff’s 13 passes was classified as “deep.”

McVay simply doesn’t give Goff the chance to take shots on second- or third-and-long. He’d rather throw a quick screen to avoid disaster, which is an obvious sign of distrust in his quarterback."

 

Those are situations that I’m not worried about being predictable there. I just wanted to take the points,” he said. “Both those situations the last couple of weeks were third-and-long. Didn’t want to do anything where you’ve got a chance for a good reward and a low risk in those situations. It’s kind of like a two-minute drive-starter. That’s a big alert for the screen. I’m OK with that because in those two specific situations you’re referring to, it was more about, ‘All right, let’s not turn the ball over or go backwards at all, we’ll take the three.’ A little bit more of a conservative approach in both of those situations, but sometimes those are decisions we have to make as coaches.”

 

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2020/12/23/rams-sean-mcvay-jared-goff-trust-stats/ This is a good read regarding McVay trusting Goff.

Can't all of that also be him compensating for the line though that wasn't performing well against a good passrush? 

[JonStark]

1 minute ago, Flounch said:

It's funny how people forget the games where we lose  against the Niners, Jets and Hawks for the NFC West title and a chance to play at home in PO. 

Didn't forget that, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Nice try avoiding it.

People say the Rams are a good QB away from winning. Well, they had a good QB performance in the playoffs and still lost. Upgrading at QB will not magically fix all of the other issues.