The Car Thread

[scar988]

43 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said:

I will have to admit when I first started researching cars to purchase last year, all anyone ever had bad to say about Nissan's were the CVTs so that lead me to believe they were the only ones who used them. Imagine my surprise when I see the massive list of cars that use them as well. I am obviously very naive to cars but I'm surprised I don't see many more reports on other CVTs aside from Nissan.

I know one car I don't see if Mazda though and they're easily the most fun car I've ever driven. My 3 and my wife's CX5 are fantastic. The drive quality and handling are perfect but I'm going from driving 20k miles a year to roughly 4k so I don't really care too much about that these days. Covid making us work from home really changed my outlook on cars TBH.

CVT's have been with Nissans primary line since 2008. That's why people talk about them all the time. But in that time, they've made sure the CVTs work. They also give 10 year 120k warranties on the transmissions themselves.

[BobbyPhil1781]

18 minutes ago, scar988 said:

CVT's have been with Nissans primary line since 2008. That's why people talk about them all the time. But in that time, they've made sure the CVTs work. They also give 10 year 120k warranties on the transmissions themselves.

That warranty is very appealing. Thanks for that info

[Tugboat]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:26 AM, scar988 said:

I really don't understand why people don't like CVT's. I've had one for a while and love it. I've never had any issues with my CVT and 99% of people don't have issues with CVT's. The reason for almost every CVT failure out there in the market today is that someone put in the wrong kind of transmission fluid and didn't make sure to put transmission fluid with a coolant additive in there. (it's literally like $1 more than regular transmission fluid per bottle). A Nissan CVT is something I'd take any day over a VW's transmission.

I love the CVT. I don't understand why people hate them as much as they do. See above.

Subaru's CVT is the best one on the market, but Nissan's is a close 2nd. They've been the two brands doing them the longest too. For what it's worth, I've been driving Nissans with a CVT for the last decade and love them. I don't understand why people don't like them.

It's not even a "reliability failure" anymore.  That can be an issue, but the bigger problem is...

It's just that CVTs fundamentally behave in a very undesirably way.

 

If you cannot understand why that is...you fundamentally do not feel vehicle dynamics.

On 10/19/2021 at 9:15 AM, MrDrew said:

It takes a certain style of driving for a CVT to be good. If you're ever in a hurry, a CVT is terrible, and very few people in this society aren't always in a hurry. Without knowing how they work, you only have to merge once to start hating a CVT.

I will say that Subaru is the least noticeable CVT. If you're not paying attention you won't realize it;s a CVT until you're speeding up to get on the freeway. Nissan is similar. The day that they can make a CVT react to acceleration the same way as a good torque converter auto, or dual-clutch, nobody will care.

They just technically get the job done, for the most part.  If you are incapable of noticing it when you drive it, you're pretty much all good...

They are serviceable automobiles that will drive you from place A to place B.  Fairly reliably.  Just don't expect any more from it.

On 10/19/2021 at 9:18 AM, scar988 said:

Very few people can actually tell the difference. I've had no problems with the get up and go on mine. The people I've noticed that hate the CVT tend to be the ones used to more power. But even on a 3.5, I feel like my acceleration WITH a CVT is better than one without it.

I mean, yes...i think the people more critical of CVTs are going to be the people more used to power being available, when they want it and directly.  A primary tenet of vehicle dynamics.

 

 

[scar988]

1 hour ago, Tugboat said:

It's not even a "reliability failure" anymore.  That can be an issue, but the bigger problem is...

It's just that CVTs fundamentally behave in a very undesirably way.

 

If you cannot understand why that is...you fundamentally do not feel vehicle dynamics.

They just technically get the job done, for the most part.  If you are incapable of noticing it when you drive it, you're pretty much all good...

They are serviceable automobiles that will drive you from place A to place B.  Fairly reliably.  Just don't expect any more from it.

I mean, yes...i think the people more critical of CVTs are going to be the people more used to power being available, when they want it and directly.  A primary tenet of vehicle dynamics.

 

 

The vast majority of people can't tell the difference. I actually notice more power. But I also drive my altima in Drive Sport mode more than regular drive mode. It's where the computer tells the vehicle to shift closer to a traditional automatic and actually does have more power and a smoother shift than you get on an automatic. 

Did you even know that that mode existed? Or are you just talking about CVTs like they are all literally the same thing? 

 

You fundamentally don't know about options on cars or how the CVTs are actually being set up and how they actually work. I'd venture to guess that it's been over a decade since you last drove a CVT.

[Tugboat]

19 hours ago, scar988 said:

The vast majority of people can't tell the difference. I actually notice more power. But I also drive my altima in Drive Sport mode more than regular drive mode. It's where the computer tells the vehicle to shift closer to a traditional automatic and actually does have more power and a smoother shift than you get on an automatic. 

Did you even know that that mode existed? Or are you just talking about CVTs like they are all literally the same thing? 

 

You fundamentally don't know about options on cars or how the CVTs are actually being set up and how they actually work. I'd venture to guess that it's been over a decade since you last drove a CVT.

You just don't seem sensitive to the mechanical differences of the transmissions and the way they operate.  There's nothing wrong with that.  If you're happy with a CVT, that's cool.  It'll move you around just fine.  If it doesn't bother you, more power to you.  Opens up a lot of options.  But you suggested you don't understand why people dislike CVTs, and that is why.  They are fundamentally mechanically different, and they behave as such, no matter how much fine tuning, and how many "modes" you apply to the transmission programming trying to "imitate" an already flawed transmission operation.  In the same way that a traditional automatic, even the really good ones with a full torque lock-up, is never going to feel the same as a manual.  In the same way a Dual Clutch automated manual is also never going to feel like a manual...or a traditional automatic and the benefits those have in their own arena.

 

People just have different levels of mechanical empathy.  We've all been a passenger in a car with someone driving a manual who is just like abusing the bejeebus out of the clutch on every single shift.  Some people notice that and it makes their bones hurt.  Some people don't.  I realize i'm in the minority in caring about that stuff.  Most people just want "A Car" that transports them from A to B.  And that's fine, even if a monorail would be a CLEARLY better option in every single way.  A CVT will accomplish that goal of conveying them from place to place.

But to me, it's a fundamentally hateful way of transferring power between an engine and a wheel in a motorcar.  It genuinely grates on my nerves, the way they operate.  And no "modes" or tweaking and tuning of ranges, or even plugging it into different motors is going to fix that.  And i'm not alone in that.  Even if a lot of the people who complain about CVT operations, don't fully even understand what exactly is is that unnerves them about the experience.

[Matts4313]

4 hours ago, Tugboat said:

You just don't seem sensitive to the mechanical differences of the transmissions and the way they operate.  There's nothing wrong with that.  If you're happy with a CVT, that's cool.  It'll move you around just fine.  If it doesn't bother you, more power to you.  Opens up a lot of options.  But you suggested you don't understand why people dislike CVTs, and that is why.  They are fundamentally mechanically different, and they behave as such, no matter how much fine tuning, and how many "modes" you apply to the transmission programming trying to "imitate" an already flawed transmission operation.  In the same way that a traditional automatic, even the really good ones with a full torque lock-up, is never going to feel the same as a manual.  In the same way a Dual Clutch automated manual is also never going to feel like a manual...or a traditional automatic and the benefits those have in their own arena.

 

People just have different levels of mechanical empathy.  We've all been a passenger in a car with someone driving a manual who is just like abusing the bejeebus out of the clutch on every single shift.  Some people notice that and it makes their bones hurt.  Some people don't.  I realize i'm in the minority in caring about that stuff.  Most people just want "A Car" that transports them from A to B.  And that's fine, even if a monorail would be a CLEARLY better option in every single way.  A CVT will accomplish that goal of conveying them from place to place.

But to me, it's a fundamentally hateful way of transferring power between an engine and a wheel in a motorcar.  It genuinely grates on my nerves, the way they operate.  And no "modes" or tweaking and tuning of ranges, or even plugging it into different motors is going to fix that.  And i'm not alone in that.  Even if a lot of the people who complain about CVT operations, don't fully even understand what exactly is is that unnerves them about the experience.

It feels like you have some weird thing about how vehicles are built instead of how they are actually used. You gave me hell for the same thing - stating 2 different trucks could be used as trucks (as designed) because the body frames were different. 

 

lol - maybe dont get so caught up in the technical aspect and realize that in practice these things are a lot more similar than you make them sound. Its almost in your mind as if we are talking the differences between a pizza and a steak. When in reality we are talking about a pizza with canadian bacon vs a pizza with pepperoni. 

[scar988]

6 hours ago, Tugboat said:

You just don't seem sensitive to the mechanical differences of the transmissions and the way they operate.  There's nothing wrong with that.  If you're happy with a CVT, that's cool.  It'll move you around just fine.  If it doesn't bother you, more power to you.  Opens up a lot of options.  But you suggested you don't understand why people dislike CVTs, and that is why.  They are fundamentally mechanically different, and they behave as such, no matter how much fine tuning, and how many "modes" you apply to the transmission programming trying to "imitate" an already flawed transmission operation.  In the same way that a traditional automatic, even the really good ones with a full torque lock-up, is never going to feel the same as a manual.  In the same way a Dual Clutch automated manual is also never going to feel like a manual...or a traditional automatic and the benefits those have in their own arena.

 

People just have different levels of mechanical empathy.  We've all been a passenger in a car with someone driving a manual who is just like abusing the bejeebus out of the clutch on every single shift.  Some people notice that and it makes their bones hurt.  Some people don't.  I realize i'm in the minority in caring about that stuff.  Most people just want "A Car" that transports them from A to B.  And that's fine, even if a monorail would be a CLEARLY better option in every single way.  A CVT will accomplish that goal of conveying them from place to place.

But to me, it's a fundamentally hateful way of transferring power between an engine and a wheel in a motorcar.  It genuinely grates on my nerves, the way they operate.  And no "modes" or tweaking and tuning of ranges, or even plugging it into different motors is going to fix that.  And i'm not alone in that.  Even if a lot of the people who complain about CVT operations, don't fully even understand what exactly is is that unnerves them about the experience.

You're talking mechanical differences. I'm talking consumer experience. 95% of my customers when I sold cars couldn't tell a difference or if they could, they loved it because it was smoother.

[Matts4313]

12 minutes ago, scar988 said:

You're talking mechanical differences. I'm talking consumer experience. 95% of my customers when I sold cars couldn't tell a difference or if they could, they loved it because it was smoother.

Way to come in and say what I said, but much more clearly. Show off. 

[scar988]

5 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Way to come in and say what I said, but much more clearly. Show off. 

I'm the king of concision.

[MrDrew]

1 hour ago, scar988 said:

You're talking mechanical differences. I'm talking consumer experience. 95% of my customers when I sold cars couldn't tell a difference or if they could, they loved it because it was smoother.

I think you're both making the same point. CVT's are fine. I also think you're right about the 95%. That 95% is what made manual transmissions almost obsolete, they made the small sporty cars like the Celica/240SX die, they made every lineup a large, mid, small, compact CUV because the drive isn't what's important to them. Driving is a chore to most people now.

The CVT is great for what it is. It's less expensive to build/maintain, less moving parts, better economy, smoother. If you just want to get from A to Z, it's perfect. If you want to experience your drive, look out the window because the car isn't going to do it for you. It still makes a lot of sense, but for the 5%, it makes them buy cars that are made for the 1% to get an experience now. That's where the big problem is with a CVT.

[Matts4313]

JEEP DELIEVERED!!!!

[Matts4313]

now I just have to drive to Tennessee to go pick it up!

Going to find out real soon if my Ram gambit blows up in my face, or if Ill get bragging rights with @MrDrew.

[diehardlionfan]

On 10/21/2021 at 9:01 AM, scar988 said:

The vast majority of people can't tell the difference. I actually notice more power. But I also drive my altima in Drive Sport mode more than regular drive mode. It's where the computer tells the vehicle to shift closer to a traditional automatic and actually does have more power and a smoother shift than you get on an automatic. 

Did you even know that that mode existed? Or are you just talking about CVTs like they are all literally the same thing? 

 

You fundamentally don't know about options on cars or how the CVTs are actually being set up and how they actually work. I'd venture to guess that it's been over a decade since you last drove a CVT.

I’ve owned and driven a great number of cars, across the spectrum. Our Rogue does everything it needs to do, comfortably. Merging isn’t an issue, there’s no thumps, bumps, hard shifts etc. 

I remember messaging you about the Rogue. We took your opinion under consideration and we bought it. 

Vehicles are a really personal choice and I think sometimes individuals get caught up in their expectations. If I were to compare the Rogue to our other vehicles it would come in last place in most categories. However none of our other vehicles is an entry level SUV, CUV or whatever they call this class of vehicle currently.

Its reasonably priced, does everything it’s supposed to. It’s great on ice and snow, gets reasonable economy and it’s been totally reliable.

They’re also hugely popular so easy to sell.

I want to move on from one of my vehicles and I’m trying to put want on the back burner. 

Im looking at electric and the Ioniq5 has piqued my curiosity. With its range in the extended version and quick charging ability it makes long range travelling very possible.

Its just such a NEW thing to me.

Do we have an electric/hybrid expert in the house?

 

[scar988]

37 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

I’ve owned and driven a great number of cars, across the spectrum. Our Rogue does everything it needs to do, comfortably. Merging isn’t an issue, there’s no thumps, bumps, hard shifts etc. 

I remember messaging you about the Rogue. We took your opinion under consideration and we bought it. 

Vehicles are a really personal choice and I think sometimes individuals get caught up in their expectations. If I were to compare the Rogue to our other vehicles it would come in last place in most categories. However none of our other vehicles is an entry level SUV, CUV or whatever they call this class of vehicle currently.

Its reasonably priced, does everything it’s supposed to. It’s great on ice and snow, gets reasonable economy and it’s been totally reliable.

They’re also hugely popular so easy to sell.

I want to move on from one of my vehicles and I’m trying to put want on the back burner. 

Im looking at electric and the Ioniq5 has piqued my curiosity. With its range in the extended version and quick charging ability it makes long range travelling very possible.

Its just such a NEW thing to me.

Do we have an electric/hybrid expert in the house?

 

Electric vehicles are a new thing to everyone. I honestly would wait for something that compares to what an electric sedan or electric SUV would be. Getting something small like an Ioniq is a waste of the torque you get from those electric motors and the ioniq isn't a true hybrid. It's a gas engine with an electric assist.

[Matts4313]

19 minutes ago, scar988 said:

Electric vehicles are a new thing to everyone. I honestly would wait for something that compares to what an electric sedan or electric SUV would be. Getting something small like an Ioniq is a waste of the torque you get from those electric motors and the ioniq isn't a true hybrid. It's a gas engine with an electric assist.

 

Arent the Jeep 4xe and F150 hybrids the same way? It seems like thats the smartest way to go hybrid right now as the fully electric vehicles have horrendous resale.