2022 Draft Talk

[SemperFeist]

47 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

Couldn't his hits also be attributed to coaching then?

Absolutely. By and large, the General Manager is given way to much credit as well as blame for the success or failure of a draft pick. 

[SemperFeist]

21 minutes ago, perrynoid said:

If this is the case, don't Spielman's drafting tendencies tend to hurt the team?  What I mean is, he tends to draft raw, high-upside athletic players.  If he is expecting the coaching staff to develop these players, isn't he engaging in the wrong methodology?  This drafting strategy has worked out well on the DL but not so well on the OL due to the quality of the coaching staff for those positions.  Maybe he should draft players with the coaching staffs abilities in mind?

Perfectly fair argument. But Spielman isn’t drafting these players independently from his coaches. No GM does. GMs draft players or player types that the coaching staff wants. These people work in unison. And by doing so, Spielman is trusting his coaches. So, there’s obviously some disconnect in there. Spielman is probably not taking a critical enough look at his coaches, and the coaches probably have too much faith in their ability to coach up a player. 

[vikingsrule]

5 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

So you’re saying that none of these players had talent coming out of college? Every one of them was talentless and that everyone one who had 1st/2nd round grades on them was unfathomably wrong? Calling total BS on that.

 

All of them. That’s his job. That’s the job of his coaches. You’re really going to try and sit there and say with a straight face that none of these players possessed traits or talent coming out of college? That all of them were talentless hacks that never should have been drafted? Again, total BS. 

But they play on the wrong side of the ball if were focusing on defense, which was my point. Treadwell was a bad pick and isn’t fit for the NFL. Bradford was a terrible trade. Hughes might have been good if he was available, Hughes isn’t a coaching or a talent problem. Just bad timing honestly. And Bradbury has been a disappointment, but again not a defensive player. 
 

My point was you can’t expect Zimmer to coach up a defense that mostly consists of has beens on one year deals which became that way due to a number of bad investments on offense. I think it’s hard to expect Zimmer to turn a raw third round DE into an all pro every time. Wonnum hasn’t made the leap but he honestly should be a rotational player, like Hunter and Griffen started out as. But obviously he was forced into a starting role due to Hunter and Griffen not being available, which again is outside of Zimmer’s control. Now I wish we’d see a young CB develop under Zimmer but we haven’t spent an early pick on the position since 2018 if you don’t count Gladney, which again is not a coaching problem.

Spielman deserves credit for the offensive talent acquired but it’s clear one side of the ball has been neglected for the other side. That’s probably intentional given Zimmer’s defensive background so I can appreciate the strategy given that you’ve got to score points in today’s NFL. 

[SemperFeist]

5 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

we haven’t spent an early pick on the position since 2018 if you don’t count Gladney, which again is not a coaching problem.

So everyone good defensive back out there is an early pick? Other teams aren’t developing mid round, late round, or even undrafted corners? 

Zimmer is supposed to be a defensive genius, and defensive back guru, yet he can’t coach up mid to late round picks? He can’t develop lesser talent? Heck, he can’t even coach up high round talent (Wayne’s, Alexander, Hughes). 

Sounds like a massive coaching problem to me. 

[SemperFeist]

15 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

I think it’s hard to expect Zimmer to turn a raw third round DE into an all pro every time

No one is expecting that. No one is expecting this coaching staff to turn every draft pick into an all pro. 

But how about a competent player? How about a reliable player? And they don’t even need to do that with every player. How about just coaching up and developing one or two players in each draft to be nothing more than a reliable, competent player?

[Buffalo Viking]

3 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

No one is expecting that. No one is expecting this coaching staff to turn every draft pick into an all pro. 

But how about a competent player? How about a reliable player? And they don’t even need to do that with every player. How about just coaching up and developing one or two players in each draft to be nothing more than a reliable, competent player?

How many young players that the Vikings end up cutting get picked up somewhere else and become competent players? If they have the talent and Zimmer just can't develop them, why don't other teams just pick up said players and develop them? Isn't it possible the players that Spielman is drafting just don't have enough talent to be successful?

I think it's fair to say both parties are at fault for the teams recent draft struggles but to say it's mainly one person or another's fault isn't fair.

[Ozzy]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Viking said:

How many young players that the Vikings end up cutting get picked up somewhere else and become competent players? If they have the talent and Zimmer just can't develop them, why don't other teams just pick up said players and develop them? Isn't it possible the players that Spielman is drafting just don't have enough talent to be successful?

I think it's fair to say both parties are at fault for the teams recent draft struggles but to say it's mainly one person or another's fault isn't fair.

Marcus Epps was picked up by the Eagles and starts for them from time to time.  Mike Hughes obviously is doing quite well on the Chiefs.  Cameron Smith had promise but got his career ended because of health issues.  Gladney obviously his career ended based on the choices he made but he had potential.

 

Jalyn Holmes picked up by the Saints but is not doing much which is not a surprise.  Daniel Carlson has been amazing for the Raiders, Downs showed flashes for the Giants last year but is not in the NFL now.   Pat Elflein has started on Carolina this year but not sure how good he is honestly.  Rodney Adams made the Bears roster but not sure he really has played much.  Odenigbo was signed by the Giants then they cut him and another team signed him I think the Browns.  Eric Wilson was signed by the Eagles then they cut him and the Texans signed him and not sure he has played for them.  Jaleel Johnson was signed by the Texans and not sure he has done much for them.  

 

Laquon Treadwell plays a bit on the Jaguars but he is nothing great.  Weatherly obviously is doing ok on Denver, surprised they let him go but Denver is using him a lot.  Jayron Kearse is playing great on the Cowboys and arguably having the best season of his career.  MyCole Pruitt is on the Titans and doing ok surprisingly.  Clearly Stefon Diggs is playing great on the Bills.  

 

Shamar Stephen is on Denver but is not doing much in terms of production and McKinnon is still around but gets hurt a ton.  Teddy Bridgewater is going great on Denver and really has came back strong after that injury.  Trae Waynes hard to say because he has been hurt so much and rarely has even played with the Bengals so they got rid of him in time apparently.   Xavier Rhodes I think is playing solid for the Colts and has bounced back after that poor season when the Vikings let him go.  Cordarrelle Patterson is having his best season as a pro, doing great as a RB and is productive as a pass catcher as well.  Best season by far for him. 

 

It is nuts of that 2013 draft the Vikings have zero players left from that class on the roster.  2012 class Harrison Smith is the only one left from that group, 2014 Anthony Barr is the only one left from that group.  Mac Alexander is the only one left from the 2016 class and Cook is the only one left from the 2017 class.  That seems pretty bad but not sure it is all that unusual.  Clearly Spielman likes a lot of picks but rarely does he hit on them instead of trading up, he always trades back and sometimes that might have not been the best idea.  

[Cearbhall]

I am firmly in the camp that believes it's primarily Rick Spielman's fault. Examples of players leaving the team and becoming very good under any other coaching are too few and too far between. It does look like coaching may be the issue with CBs based on Rhodes and Hughes both playing batter on other teams, but overall Rick Spielman appears to be a below average GM.  He hits big on a few picks, but for the most part he does a really poor job of bringing in talent. He also is responsible for the fact that Mike Zimmer is still the head coach. He made a huge blunder by sticking with Zimmer.

[wcblack34]

4 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

So everyone good defensive back out there is an early pick? Other teams aren’t developing mid round, late round, or even undrafted corners? 

Zimmer is supposed to be a defensive genius, and defensive back guru, yet he can’t coach up mid to late round picks? He can’t develop lesser talent? Heck, he can’t even coach up high round talent (Wayne’s, Alexander, Hughes). 

Sounds like a massive coaching problem to me. 

This.

Zimmer has been hailed as a DB Guru his entire career. You can't be a DB Guru if you can only coach up 1st round picks. 

[SemperFeist]

12 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

This.

Zimmer has been hailed as a DB Guru his entire career. You can't be a DB Guru if you can only coach up 1st round picks. 

*that you weren’t even involved with drafting. 

[wcblack34]

24 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I am firmly in the camp that believes it's primarily Rick Spielman's fault. Examples of players leaving the team and becoming very good under any other coaching are too few and too far between. It does look like coaching may be the issue with CBs based on Rhodes and Hughes both playing batter on other teams, but overall Rick Spielman appears to be a below average GM.  He hits big on a few picks, but for the most part he does a really poor job of bringing in talent. He also is responsible for the fact that Mike Zimmer is still the head coach. He made a huge blunder by sticking with Zimmer.

Examples of players leaving a team and becoming good elsewhere are generally pretty rare. With the exception of Kirk Cousins and Mason Cole, every other player on the offensive side of the ball who has played any significant role is homegrown. On defense, our DE's are homegrown. Our LBs are homegrown. Smith and Dantzler are homegrown. Alexander was homegrown (although he has been poor this year). Armon Watts looks like a solid building block moving forward. PP and Breeland were necessities because Hughes was never available and Gladney was unavailable because of off-field issues. Those aren't Spielman's fault. 

Dalvin Tomlinson hasn't lived up to expectations. Michael Pierce has looked like a beast...when available.  

Spielman has put together a very solid roster. Injuries and bad coaching decisions have been what have decimated this team this year (and you could argue the same for last year's injury-fest). The Wilfs have the final say on the coach. If they wanted Zimmer gone, he would have been gone. 

In 2016, the Vikings picked Laquon Treadwell at #23. Bad pick. No question about that. The WFT picked Josh Doctson at #22. He was bad. Cincy picked William Jackson III at #24. He's been mediocre. The Steelers picked Artie Burns at #25. Mediocre. Denver took Paxton Lynch at #26. Bad. 

In 2017 we didn't have a first round pick because of the Bradford trade. That was definitely bad. But we took Dalvin in the 2nd round. Which was a home run. Carolina took Curtis Samuel. Mediocre. New Orleans took Marcus Williams. Average. Philly took Sidney Jones. He's been mediocre. 

In 2018 we took Mike Huges at #30. Injuries kept him from being useful here, but he seems to be playing very well in KC. Jacksonville took Taven Bryan at #29. He's been nothing special. New England took Sony Michel at at #31 and he's no longer with them, and hasn't been anything special. The Ravens took Lamar Jackson. He's obviously been outstanding, but he's a knee injury away from being worse than RGIII.

In 2019, we took Bradbury at #18. Tennessee took Jeffery Simmons, Denver took Noah Fant, Green Bay took Darnell Savage, Philly took Andre Dillard and Houston took Tytus Howard. Simmons has 12.5 sacks over three years. He looks like he may be solid, but not spectacular. Noah Fant is slightly above average so far. Savage has been middle of the pack (pun not intended). Dillard is a backup, and Howard has a 46.2 PFF grade this year.

 

Spielman hasn't faired much better or worse than anyone drafting in similar spots. He has generally failed at the QB spot, although Bridgewater suffered a freak injury. But Cousins has played at a top 10 level the last couple of years. 

[wcblack34]

9 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

It is a coaching issue. It’s the coaches who have failed to develop the talent.

I also don’t think that Zimmer‘s decision to not play the starters in the preseason can be overlooked. This team simply was not ready to play at all the first couple of games of the year. That is a coaching decision. That was not Rick Spielman.

[vikingsrule]

33 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

I also don’t think that Zimmer‘s decision to not play the starters in the preseason can be overlooked. This team simply was not ready to play at all the first couple of games of the year. That is a coaching decision. That was not Rick Spielman.

I suspect that’s a trend for most teams with light practices and limited preseason games. I think that will continue going forward, which will lead to sloppier football in September, but that is probably fine so long as injuries aren’t a major issue with the new structure.

[Ozzy]

 

Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner Cincinnati CB:  He looks more and more like a great option for the Vikings at CB, could be an awesome pickup.  Is not the best tackler in the world but few have his length and ball skills and he has flashed moments as a tackler enough to be a 1st round pick easy.    

 

"he had allowed just 14 receptions on 32 targets in 12 games and had never allowed a touchdown in his career." (which he has been a starter for 32 games at this point in three years of college football)

 

 

 

 

 

Some other very interesting stats by some potential prospects, all are All Americans.

 

*Zion Johnson Boston College OG:  "He allowed just one sack in 2,288 career snaps with the Eagles and had just four blown blocks in 756 snaps this season. "

 

*Jermaine Johnson Florida State DE: " In 394 pass-rushing plays, he created 41 defensive pressures and 12 incompletions."

 

*Charles Cross Miss State OT:  "Remarkably, he allowed just five pressures and one sack in 682 pass blocks, which were second most in the FBS, behind only teammate LaQuinston Sharp's 689."

 

*Kenneth Walker III Michigan State RB:  "his 990 yards after first contact were most among FBS players. He evaded tackles 48 times, second most among running backs, and his 38 broken tackles were tied for third most."

 

*Jameson Williams Alabama WR:  " His 21.3 yards per catch were second most among FBS players with more than 30 receptions. Williams had only three drops in 107 targets and he was third in the FBS with 690 yards after catch."

 

*Devin Lloyd Utah LB:  "His 22 tackles for loss were the second most among FBS players. "

 

*Tyler Linderbaum Iowa C :  "He allowed just four quarterback pressures in 363 pass blocks this season. "

 

 

[NoDakViking]

9 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner Cincinnati CB:  He looks more and more like a great option for the Vikings at CB, could be an awesome pickup.  Is not the best tackler in the world but few have his length and ball skills and he has flashed moments as a tackler enough to be a 1st round pick easy.    

 

"he had allowed just 14 receptions on 32 targets in 12 games and had never allowed a touchdown in his career." (which he has been a starter for 32 games at this point in three years of college football)

 

 

 

 

 

Some other very interesting stats by some potential prospects, all are All Americans.

 

*Zion Johnson Boston College OG:  "He allowed just one sack in 2,288 career snaps with the Eagles and had just four blown blocks in 756 snaps this season. "

 

*Jermaine Johnson Florida State DE: " In 394 pass-rushing plays, he created 41 defensive pressures and 12 incompletions."

 

*Charles Cross Miss State OT:  "Remarkably, he allowed just five pressures and one sack in 682 pass blocks, which were second most in the FBS, behind only teammate LaQuinston Sharp's 689."

 

*Kenneth Walker III Michigan State RB:  "his 990 yards after first contact were most among FBS players. He evaded tackles 48 times, second most among running backs, and his 38 broken tackles were tied for third most."

 

*Jameson Williams Alabama WR:  " His 21.3 yards per catch were second most among FBS players with more than 30 receptions. Williams had only three drops in 107 targets and he was third in the FBS with 690 yards after catch."

 

*Devin Lloyd Utah LB:  "His 22 tackles for loss were the second most among FBS players. "

 

*Tyler Linderbaum Iowa C :  "He allowed just four quarterback pressures in 363 pass blocks this season. "

 

 

Lloyd and either of the top corners are favorites and probably pretty likely picks regardless of what the coaching staff and FO look like.

Also should see Jameson Williams vs Sauce Gardner in CFP semis so that should be fun.