jrry32 Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, BrownLeader said: Based on glimpses of talent, difficulty & ind/team success, excluding Marino since I didn't watch him, the top rookie QB seasons imo roughly.... 1. Justin Herbert 2. Russell Wilson 3. Ben Roethlisberger 4. Matt Ryan 5. Joe Burrow 6. Mac Jones* 7. Dak Prescott 8. Baker Mayfield 9. Cam Newton 10. Robert Griffin That list is miles off the mark and is tainted in some ways by hindsight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 5 hours ago, Jeezla said: Is Mac Jones season considerably better than Matt Cassel's 2008 season with NE, if you ignore him being a rookie? Cassel 10 wins in 15 starts. 21 TD's, about 3700 yards. 11 picks. Mac 10 wins in 16 starts. 21 TD's, about 3550 yards. 12 picks. Mac is being asked to do considerably more than Cassel was. Also, his efficiency numbers are significantly better, despite a weaker supporting cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeezla Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, Apparition said: Mac is being asked to do considerably more than Cassel was. Also, his efficiency numbers are significantly better, despite a weaker supporting cast. What is the considerably more that Mac is doing vs Cassel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 5 hours ago, jrry32 said: No, he's not. He's not even in the same stratosphere as Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Big Ben, RGIII, Justin Herbert, Deshaun Watson, or Dan Marino. Nor is he in the same tier as Baker, Kyler, or Cam Newton. He's on par with guys like Matt Ryan, Jameis Winston, Daniel Jones, and Marcus Mariota. The only one I take issue with there is Roethlisberger. People have a weirdly high opinion of his rookie year because of team success, but he really wasn't asked to do that much. He didn't even reach the 300-attempt plateau and only topped 200 passing yards 4 times in 13 starts. through 16 games, McCorkle's ranks among all-time rookie QB seasons (minimum 350 attempts): Attempts: 14th Completions: 8th CMP%: 2nd Yards: 11th TD Passes: t9th TD%: 8th INT%: 7th Passer RTG: 4th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Just now, Jeezla said: What is the considerably more that Mac is doing vs Cassel? Throwing downfield. Calling audibles/protections, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeezla Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 minute ago, Apparition said: Throwing downfield. Calling audibles/protections, etc. So Matt Cassel never called an audible or threw a deep pass? Yet still averaged the same YPA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Jeezla said: So Matt Cassel never called an audible or threw a deep pass? Yet still averaged the same YPA? Cassel's receivers had much better YAC ability. And I'm not saying he NEVER threw deep. Just not as often. And he wasn't very good at it despite having Randy Moss. Edited January 3, 2022 by Apparition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 14 minutes ago, Apparition said: Mac is being asked to do considerably more than Cassel was. Also, his efficiency numbers are significantly better, despite a weaker supporting cast. Are they? Compared to league average Cassel's 2008 is clearly superior to Jones 2021. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Just now, Bullet Club said: Are they? Compared to league average Cassel's 2008 is clearly superior to Jones 2021. I never said anything about league averages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Apparition said: The only one I take issue with there is Roethlisberger. People have a weirdly high opinion of his rookie year because of team success, but he really wasn't asked to do that much. He didn't even reach the 300-attempt plateau and only topped 200 passing yards 4 times in 13 starts. through 16 games, McCorkle's ranks among all-time rookie QB seasons (minimum 350 attempts): Attempts: 14th Completions: 8th CMP%: 2nd Yards: 11th TD Passes: t9th TD%: 8th INT%: 7th Passer RTG: 4th Jones's numbers are very similar to Marcus Mariota's. Nobody talks about him having a historically great rookie year. As for Ben, the Steelers went 13-0 in his starts, and he was hyper efficient. EDIT: There's also no way he's fourth in passer rating, even using your cutoff. Russ, RGIII, Dak, Herbert, and Baker are all better, off the top of my head. Edited January 3, 2022 by jrry32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 55 minutes ago, Apparition said: I never said anything about league averages. You mentioned efficiency, and it's much easier to be efficient in 2021 than 2008. Were you not factoring that in? Because that's relevant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeezla Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) Is this measurement based off wrist to finger tip or hand span? My hand is 9" from the tip of my middle finger to the start of my wrist, but 9 3/4" if you measure tip of thumb spread out to tip of pinky spread out. doh, thought I was in the Pickett thread Edited January 3, 2022 by Jeezla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Jones's numbers are very similar to Marcus Mariota's. Nobody talks about him having a historically great rookie year. As for Ben, the Steelers went 13-0 in his starts, and he was hyper efficient. Not exactly. For one, Mariota only started 12 games and had about 25% fewer attempts. For another, Mariota fattened up his efficiency numbers in three games against the Bucs, Jags and Saints (three of the worst defenses in the league) and was outside of those was far less impressive. McCorkle has been a lot more consistent, having 7 games with passer ratings > 100 (compared to just the 3 for Mariota). I also firmly believe that volume matters when you're talking about these things. That 2004 Steelers team had 84 more rushing attempts than any other team in the league and I don't think any team since has had such a lopsided run-pass ratio. Roethlisberger was efficient, yes, but so much of his success came off play action, and that's something you simply can't ignore. The Pats have a good running game, yeah, but they're 8th in attempts and yards, and have thrown more than they've run overall. Edited January 3, 2022 by Apparition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownLeader Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 4 hours ago, Jeezla said: I don't know what this means On face it means it's absurd to say, "if you ignore he's a rookie", when they're 4 seasons apart, man 1 hour ago, Apparition said: The only one I take issue with there is Roethlisberger. People have a weirdly high opinion of his rookie year because of team success, but he really wasn't asked to do that much. He didn't even reach the 300-attempt plateau and only topped 200 passing yards 4 times in 13 starts. through 16 games, McCorkle's ranks among all-time rookie QB seasons (minimum 350 attempts): Attempts: 14th Completions: 8th CMP%: 2nd Yards: 11th TD Passes: t9th TD%: 8th INT%: 7th Passer RTG: 4th Fair points but Roethlisberger made clutch plays that most rookies don't make. His ability to create and convert, even as a rookie, was special. Back to OP, watching the Vikings last night, Mannion was giving really big Carson Strong vibes. They're weirdly similar prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 41 minutes ago, Apparition said: Not exactly. For one, Mariota only started 12 games and had about 25% fewer attempts. For another, Mariota fattened up his efficiency numbers in three games against the Bucs, Jags and Saints (three of the worst defenses in the league) and was outside of those was far less impressive. McCorkle has been a lot more consistent, having 7 games with passer ratings > 100 (compared to just the 3 for Mariota). I also firmly believe that volume matters when you're talking about these things. That 2004 Steelers team had 84 more rushing attempts than any other team in the league and I don't think any team since has had such a lopsided run-pass ratio. Roethlisberger was efficient, yes, but so much of his success came off play action, and that's something you simply can't ignore. The Pats have a good running game, yeah, but they're 8th in attempts and yards, and have thrown more than they've run overall. I firmly believe that volume doesn't matter. Also, check the edit. At least one of the numbers you quoted earlier wasn't correct. At the end of the day, when you get to pick what numbers are important, it's easy to find the ones that you say what you want them to say. In any case, McCorkle's numbers don't compare to the top rookie QB seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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