Raiders hire Josh McDaniels as HC

[Jerry]

19 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

The problem with Carr is not that there is a fall off when his weapons go down.  That happens with every QB.  It is how much of a fall off he has when his weapons go down.  Take Rodgers as an example.  Over the past 3 years Adams has missed 7 games.  In those 7 games Rodgers has thrown 19 TDs, 1 Int, and averaged 292 yards per game.  The Packers also won all 7 games.  I am not saying Carr should be Rodgers but it would be nice if he could step it up a little.

Using arguably the best QB in the game as a reference isn't always fair.  Plus GB has been and still is a better team overall in terms of talent, continuity, weapons, everything.  You could dive deeper into the statistics and for all we know those 7 games Adams missed might be against the Lions, Texans, and Jets.  

Either way, we need more weapons and more depth.  Hopefully McDaniels can finally bring us some continuity and long term success.

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, Devilshark69 said:

And what would that plan be? Specifically for this year? We’ve already discussed ad nauseum the fact that free agency and the draft this year are doo doo. Lol. Give up picks (multiple firsts especially) for Rogers rental, or maybe k Murray? Lol! Daniel Jones stopgap? Or better yet how bout Watson and his baggage? Pretty sure mcd and Ziegler are aware of this. And this is NOT some dc love fest post. I’m perfectly aware of his flaws bro. IMO, this is a silly discussion for this particular year. Period!

I have been having this discussion since 2017.  I am not a Carr hater but this team needs to start looking.  I am not having this discussion with a specific player in mind but after this year Car holds no value.  If he can fix his issues I am all for extending him but the way he is now we are stuck in neutral.  If I was able to come up with a workable plan to fix this team I would be making a lot more money doing a job I love a lot more.  What I want is for this team to finally make some tough decisions.  Are they going to get it correct?  I do not know but it sucks being a fan when they choose to stay the course when it is not going to get you to the final goal of winning a championship.  He is not a bad QB but he is not able to overcome deficiencies with the rest of the team.  Chances of getting a  top QB are not high but they never are.  Even with the #1 pick you could get a Peyton Manning or a Jamarcus Russell.  

[Chali21]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

I have been having this discussion since 2017.  I am not a Carr hater but this team needs to start looking.  I am not having this discussion with a specific player in mind but after this year Car holds no value.  If he can fix his issues I am all for extending him but the way he is now we are stuck in neutral.  If I was able to come up with a workable plan to fix this team I would be making a lot more money doing a job I love a lot more.  What I want is for this team to finally make some tough decisions.  Are they going to get it correct?  I do not know but it sucks being a fan when they choose to stay the course when it is not going to get you to the final goal of winning a championship.  He is not a bad QB but he is not able to overcome deficiencies with the rest of the team.  Chances of getting a  top QB are not high but they never are.  Even with the #1 pick you could get a Peyton Manning or a Jamarcus Russell.  

I get what you’re saying but even if the Raiders devote resources to the position those resources can hamstrung an organization. The Raiders are not a QB away from the super bowl. If the Raiders trade picks to move up and draft a QB they better be sure with who they’re drafting. Because if they miss they won’t have another shot at it for awhile and you won’t be able to make the team better in the draft. 

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, Jerry said:

Using arguably the best QB in the game as a reference isn't always fair.  Plus GB has been and still is a better team overall in terms of talent, continuity, weapons, everything.  You could dive deeper into the statistics and for all we know those 7 games Adams missed might be against the Lions, Texans, and Jets.  

Either way, we need more weapons and more depth.  Hopefully McDaniels can finally bring us some continuity and long term success.

I agree it is unfair to say Carr should be Rodgers but just showing what is possible for everyone defending Carr every time there is an injury.  Would you want to hold onto Carr if you new last year was as good is he is ever going to be?  I would not and it is a possibility.  I hope I am wrong about this but this is year 5 where I am saying I hope I am wrong about this.  I do not agree that Rodgers has better weapons than Carr with Adams out.  I only say without Adams because Rodgers has out performed Carr with a fully healthy team when Adams is out.  GB has a better defense but the weapons are close if not in favor of Carr.  Jones is better than Jacobs but by how much?  Renfrow out produced Lazzard and Scalding combined.  Moreau almost out produced Lewis and Tonyan combined.  Who is Rodgers ace in the hole?  Cobb?  Rodgers even elevates those players to become better.  You are correct that we need more weapons and depth.  I do not see that as an excuse though for Carr not excelling.  He has had his opportunities and has the physical attributes to do it.  He lacks the mentality to do it.  He will not be great until he changes his mindset.  And therefore we will not be a contender until he does or we find someone who has it.  I would rather have a crap QB next year than a have a QB that has just enough to stop you from looking somewhere else.  At least with the crap QB we know there will be some active search the next year.  Like I said I hope I am wrong but I am sick of saying it.

GB opponents with Adams out.

21- Arizona

20 - NO and ATL

19 - Dal, Det, OAK, and KC

[drfrey13]

12 minutes ago, Chali21 said:

I get what you’re saying but even if the Raiders devote resources to the position those resources can hamstrung an organization. The Raiders are not a QB away from the super bowl. If the Raiders trade picks to move up and draft a QB they better be sure with who they’re drafting. Because if they miss they won’t have another shot at it for awhile and you won’t be able to make the team better in the draft. 

I understand that risk but you do not have to position yourself to get a QB this year.  If you could trade Carr for some draft picks and sign a journeymen you can set yourself up to build the team and draft the QBOTF in the net year or two.  There is no absolute way to do it.  You have to go based off of the circumstances and that might dictate keeping Carr but this has been going on for to long and I know there have been opportunities to pull the trigger.  I do not want what is best for the team.  I want what gives the team the best chance to become a contender and eventually win a championship.  That means taking a risk on players or taking a risk that we have a magical season where no one gets hurt and Carr gets hot at the perfect time.  Both scenarios can happen but you are more likely when drafting even when those are low odds.

[Jerry]

2 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I agree it is unfair to say Carr should be Rodgers but just showing what is possible for everyone defending Carr every time there is an injury.  Would you want to hold onto Carr if you new last year was as good is he is ever going to be?  I would not and it is a possibility.  I hope I am wrong about this but this is year 5 where I am saying I hope I am wrong about this.  I do not agree that Rodgers has better weapons than Carr with Adams out.  I only say without Adams because Rodgers has out performed Carr with a fully healthy team when Adams is out.  GB has a better defense but the weapons are close if not in favor of Carr.  Jones is better than Jacobs but by how much?  Renfrow out produced Lazzard and Scalding combined.  Moreau almost out produced Lewis and Tonyan combined.  Who is Rodgers ace in the hole?  Cobb?  Rodgers even elevates those players to become better.  You are correct that we need more weapons and depth.  I do not see that as an excuse though for Carr not excelling.  He has had his opportunities and has the physical attributes to do it.  He lacks the mentality to do it.  He will not be great until he changes his mindset.  And therefore we will not be a contender until he does or we find someone who has it.  I would rather have a crap QB next year than a have a QB that has just enough to stop you from looking somewhere else.  At least with the crap QB we know there will be some active search the next year.  Like I said I hope I am wrong but I am sick of saying it.

GB opponents with Adams out.

21- Arizona

20 - NO and ATL

19 - Dal, Det, OAK, and KC

Last year wasn't his best in my opinion.  I think his 2015-2016 years (I might be one off) when he was throwing between 28-32 TDs is the best he can be.  That was a really good system with some pretty good talent on offense and the defense was okay (best defense we had between 2010-2020).  I think if we still had Ruggs and Gruden he would've finished with even better stats this season as well.  

Pretty sure Jones is the better RB.  I'd pull up stats and measurables to compare but internet sucks for me right now being on deployment.  

Darn you for taking the time to research this lol.

DC got us into the playoffs after losing his #1, the OL going to crap, his HC resigning, the defense still getting blown out at times.  I said this somewhere on the forum, if he takes 20-25M I say we keep him.  If he demands 35-40M per season then we should trade him away for picks and draft a young QB to groom while surrounding him with talent via FA using the saved money from not resigning DC.

[drfrey13]

1 minute ago, Jerry said:

Last year wasn't his best in my opinion.  I think his 2015-2016 years (I might be one off) when he was throwing between 28-32 TDs is the best he can be.  That was a really good system with some pretty good talent on offense and the defense was okay (best defense we had between 2010-2020).  I think if we still had Ruggs and Gruden he would've finished with even better stats this season as well.  

Pretty sure Jones is the better RB.  I'd pull up stats and measurables to compare but internet sucks for me right now being on deployment.  

Darn you for taking the time to research this lol.

DC got us into the playoffs after losing his #1, the OL going to crap, his HC resigning, the defense still getting blown out at times.  I said this somewhere on the forum, if he takes 20-25M I say we keep him.  If he demands 35-40M per season then we should trade him away for picks and draft a young QB to groom while surrounding him with talent via FA using the saved money from not resigning DC.

That is a very practical approach and although I would not love it I would not hate it either.  I agree Carr is not worth $35 million.  I said before the season I could see him getting in the low to mid 30's.  I still think that is where the market is but not what I would choose to do.  Thank you for the response and stay safe.

[Geezy]

7 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I am not saying he should be although I think he has the physical skills to get a lot closer.  I am saying we should try to upgrade at the position to get closer to that level.  The divide between elite QBs and Carr is wide enough that we should be looking to improve.  

I think it’s easier to upgrade around him than upgrade at the QB position. He was doing just fine when he had Waller, Ruggs, Renfrow, Edwards and Jones. That was with a bad OL and no run game, so it’s not like he had a world class Arsenal at that point either. 

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, Geezy said:

I think it’s easier to upgrade around him than upgrade at the QB position. He was doing just fine when he had Waller, Ruggs, Renfrow, Edwards and Jones. That was with a bad OL and no run game, so it’s not like he had a world class Arsenal at that point either. 

But he was not.  He threw for a bunch of yards but we could not score TDs.  The offense keeps stalling and we settle for FGs.  If we need a good run game, good weapons, good play calling, and good o-line for him to score TDs he is not playing well.  Most QBs in the league are going to score TDs if the offense is firing on all cylinders.  The good QBs figure out ways to overcome deficiencies.  He has the mentality of live to fight another day 95% of the time.  He does not have a good grasp of situational football and hits the gas pedal at the last possible moment so we have to play perfect to win.  When he is playing well it is still a nail biter because he does not have that killer instinct.  Hopefully McDaniel can bring some of the BB situational awareness and the mentality to not let up.

Is it easier to upgrade positions besides QB?  Yes.  Is it easier to upgrade half the team? No.  I am not saying we will have a top 5 QB next year.  I do not want to trade for a Watson or Russell.  I want to take a longer term approach.  If the right trade is there I pull the trigger and go with a Journeymen QB until my guy is within reach.  I do not want to commit to a 5 year $175 million to Carr which will be close to what he gets.

[MrOaktown_56]

15 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

 If we need a good run game, good weapons, good play calling, and good o-line for him to score TDs he is not playing well. 

This is just laughably wrong. Mahomes has all these things. So does Rodgers. So did Stafford this year. So did every offense/qb in the league playing well. This is just inane. Show me one offense playing well that isn't loaded. Cincy might be the closest, but they have the best WR group in the league despite their OL being shaky.

 

15 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

But he was not.  He threw for a bunch of yards but we could not score TDs.  The offense keeps stalling and we settle for FGs.  If we need a good run game, good weapons, good play calling, and good o-line for him to score TDs he is not playing well.  Most QBs in the league are going to score TDs if the offense is firing on all cylinders.  The good QBs figure out ways to overcome deficiencies.  He has the mentality of live to fight another day 95% of the time.  He does not have a good grasp of situational football and hits the gas pedal at the last possible moment so we have to play perfect to win.  When he is playing well it is still a nail biter because he does not have that killer instinct.  Hopefully McDaniel can bring some of the BB situational awareness and the mentality to not let up.

Is it easier to upgrade positions besides QB?  Yes.  Is it easier to upgrade half the team? No.  I am not saying we will have a top 5 QB next year.  I do not want to trade for a Watson or Russell.  I want to take a longer term approach.  If the right trade is there I pull the trigger and go with a Journeymen QB until my guy is within reach.  I do not want to commit to a 5 year $175 million to Carr which will be close to what he gets.

He was shredding teams with Ruggs. With all those field goals, we still scored 30+ in 60% of the games with Ruggs.

If you take Adams away from Rodgers, or Hill/Kelce from Mahomes, what do you expect? We were without Waller too down the stretch. Not to mention the OL barely got it together. It was a pitiful group and he did just enough to eke out wins with the help of the defense, which I am not downplaying.

I'm not trading him just to have a journeyman. What is the "right trade"? We aren't getting a Houston Tunsil package.

So what, a 1st and change? That's crazy. McDaniels took this job because this team is close. Carr can play better, but let's not act like this team has been managed well in the last 8 years.

You can say the criticisms you made about 95% of the qb's in the league. Only elite quarterbacks can overcome deficiencies and even that is spotty. The thing all the teams deep in the playoffs have in common is that they are all loaded teams. Hell, Jimmy G is a bottom 10 starter and they still almost made the super bowl. 

This is like the "KC owns Carr" argument. They've owned the whole AFC and coached/drafted circles around us for 10 years. Same with the Chargers. No wonder Ziegler was unimpressed by 1 wild card berth.

Until this front office proves that it can put together a well-built team, or Carr doesn't play well (unlikely considering he's done it the last 3-4 years with poor skill position/OL continuity), I have no patience for this talk.

 

 

[Geezy]

30 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

But he was not.  He threw for a bunch of yards but we could not score TDs.  The offense keeps stalling and we settle for FGs.  If we need a good run game, good weapons, good play calling, and good o-line for him to score TDs he is not playing well.  Most QBs in the league are going to score TDs if the offense is firing on all cylinders.  The good QBs figure out ways to overcome deficiencies.  He has the mentality of live to fight another day 95% of the time.  He does not have a good grasp of situational football and hits the gas pedal at the last possible moment so we have to play perfect to win.  When he is playing well it is still a nail biter because he does not have that killer instinct.  Hopefully McDaniel can bring some of the BB situational awareness and the mentality to not let up.

Is it easier to upgrade positions besides QB?  Yes.  Is it easier to upgrade half the team? No.  I am not saying we will have a top 5 QB next year.  I do not want to trade for a Watson or Russell.  I want to take a longer term approach.  If the right trade is there I pull the trigger and go with a Journeymen QB until my guy is within reach.  I do not want to commit to a 5 year $175 million to Carr which will be close to what he gets.

We scored 30+ in 4 out of 7 games with Ruggs. We don’t need to upgrade half the team. We need a WR, and a healthy OL. People forget we were without two of our top OL after the first series of the year. I don’t think a solid OL and solid weapons is too much to ask for, but that’s just me. 

[MrOaktown_56]

27 minutes ago, Geezy said:

We scored 30+ in 4 out of 7 games with Ruggs. We don’t need to upgrade half the team. We need a WR, and a healthy OL. People forget we were without two of our top OL after the first series of the year. I don’t think a solid OL and solid weapons is too much to ask for, but that’s just me. 

Apparently it is.

 

[Totty]

3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

This is just laughably wrong. Mahomes has all these things. So does Rodgers. So did Stafford this year. So did every offense/qb in the league playing well. This is just inane. Show me one offense playing well that isn't loaded. Cincy might be the closest, but they have the best WR group in the league despite their OL being shaky.

 

He was shredding teams with Ruggs. With all those field goals, we still scored 30+ in 60% of the games with Ruggs.

If you take Adams away from Rodgers, or Hill/Kelce from Mahomes, what do you expect? We were without Waller too down the stretch. Not to mention the OL barely got it together. It was a pitiful group and he did just enough to eke out wins with the help of the defense, which I am not downplaying.

I'm not trading him just to have a journeyman. What is the "right trade"? We aren't getting a Houston Tunsil package.

So what, a 1st and change? That's crazy. McDaniels took this job because this team is close. Carr can play better, but let's not act like this team has been managed well in the last 8 years.

You can say the criticisms you made about 95% of the qb's in the league. Only elite quarterbacks can overcome deficiencies and even that is spotty. The thing all the teams deep in the playoffs have in common is that they are all loaded teams. Hell, Jimmy G is a bottom 10 starter and they still almost made the super bowl. 

This is like the "KC owns Carr" argument. They've owned the whole AFC and coached/drafted circles around us for 10 years. Same with the Chargers. No wonder Ziegler was unimpressed by 1 wild card berth.

Until this front office proves that it can put together a well-built team, or Carr doesn't play well (unlikely considering he's done it the last 3-4 years with poor skill position/OL continuity), I have no patience for this talk.

 

 

Home run post.

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

This is just laughably wrong. Mahomes has all these things. So does Rodgers. So did Stafford this year. So did every offense/qb in the league playing well. This is just inane. Show me one offense playing well that isn't loaded. Cincy might be the closest, but they have the best WR group in the league despite their OL being shaky.

 

He was shredding teams with Ruggs. With all those field goals, we still scored 30+ in 60% of the games with Ruggs.

If you take Adams away from Rodgers, or Hill/Kelce from Mahomes, what do you expect? We were without Waller too down the stretch. Not to mention the OL barely got it together. It was a pitiful group and he did just enough to eke out wins with the help of the defense, which I am not downplaying.

I'm not trading him just to have a journeyman. What is the "right trade"? We aren't getting a Houston Tunsil package.

So what, a 1st and change? That's crazy. McDaniels took this job because this team is close. Carr can play better, but let's not act like this team has been managed well in the last 8 years.

You can say the criticisms you made about 95% of the qb's in the league. Only elite quarterbacks can overcome deficiencies and even that is spotty. The thing all the teams deep in the playoffs have in common is that they are all loaded teams. Hell, Jimmy G is a bottom 10 starter and they still almost made the super bowl. 

This is like the "KC owns Carr" argument. They've owned the whole AFC and coached/drafted circles around us for 10 years. Same with the Chargers. No wonder Ziegler was unimpressed by 1 wild card berth.

Until this front office proves that it can put together a well-built team, or Carr doesn't play well (unlikely considering he's done it the last 3-4 years with poor skill position/OL continuity), I have no patience for this talk.

 

 

You are not getting what I said.  If the only time he plays well is when he has everyone else around playing well then he is not good enough.  He needs to be able to overcome adversity and elevate the players around him.  Be the reason why players play better and not you needing them.  This is the NFL and if you are waiting on a magical season where everyone stays healthy thru the season you are most likely going to be waiting awhile.  Could we improve on the people around him? Yes.  Should we? Of course if he is going to be our QB but what I want is a QB that is not going to have such a steep drop-off in production when people get hurt or they have some sort of adversity.  Remember I have not said Carr's sucks but rather he is not good enough for me if we are going to pay him $35 million a year.  He has trade value now and that would be the direction I am leaning to.  Of course the deal would have to meet my expectations also and if he decided to take a big paycut so that we can surround him with more talent then I am open to that also.

It has already been established that Carr is not on Rodgers level and unfair to say he should be.  I was just pointing out the divide because it should not be that great with Carr's physical abilities.  I used it as an example of how much the production falls off with Carr and an example of how much he needs good players around because of his mentality.  Peak Carr with this year before Ruggs incident he averaged 324 yards per game and had 12 TDs with 5 Ints.  The team averaged almost 26 points per game I have already showed that Rodgers without Adams over the past three years averaged 292 yards per game and had 19 TDs to go with 1 Int.  The team also averaged 31.5 points per game.  There is no comparison between the two.

Do you really believe Carr has never had good skill players or O-line?  He has and I would love to see how a QB that does not play with a live to fight another day mentality would do with this team.  

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, Geezy said:

We scored 30+ in 4 out of 7 games with Ruggs. We don’t need to upgrade half the team. We need a WR, and a healthy OL. People forget we were without two of our top OL after the first series of the year. I don’t think a solid OL and solid weapons is too much to ask for, but that’s just me. 

I am not saying he had a rough time last year.  What I am saying is that the drop off was to much.  He had a couple games where he came thru and played really good.  I am not saying he sucks and we should cut him or not extend him.  What I am saying is for the right package I trade him and if he wants $35 million that is too much.  This is not me having a Frankie Cooper bashing session where I saw he sucks and does not deserve the money.  I am saying he is good but he is not that good and if a SB is you goal you are going to need some extraordinary circumstances to get it with Carr.  You are going to need to upgrade the defense drastically, upgrade Jacobs, upgrade the entire right side of the line, and get two very good outside WRs.  You will probably have to do it with Moreau because Waller could start regressing soon and we also have a few talents that are going to be looking for big paydays coming up.  I could be wrong but I think going in a different direction gives us a better chance in a couple years of being a contender.  I am not trying to win next year because I do not believe we have the resources to fix enough of the problems.