Mox Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said: While I agree for the most part, Wonder Woman is a much bigger character than Black Widow. They honestly could've started the entire universe with that movie. I agree with your overall point, though. It was either her or Captain Marvel. There isn't a good equivalent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: It was either her or Captain Marvel. There isn't a good equivalent. Even then Captain Marvel is relatively new to the big player world in the comics, especially when you consider Wonder Woman's legacy. Most of the remotely comparable women in Marvel were sold off and not apart of the MCU. Jean Grey and Sue Storm for instance. The only person I can think of with similar clout legacy wise is Janet Van Dynne as a founding Avenger member, but even thats a pretty big stretch from Wonder Woman in terms of significance. While they are attempting to make up for it in the last decade with Kitty Pryde and Emma Frost running the Xmen, Captain Marvel being in the forefront, Thor being a woman for some time (I dont want to spoil that arc so PM if you want more deets), Medusa being the lone ruler of the Inhumans, Kate Bishop being the only Hawkeye with a continuity inclusive ongoing since Matt Fraction's run ended in 2015 (which HEAVILY featured Kate anyways), and all the female legacy/newly introduced heroes like Ms Khan, Riri Williams, Spider-Gwen, Nadia Pym, and Viv Vision. DC really has a strangle hold on Women in comics when they got the big jump with Wonder Woman. However, what really kept them ahead of the curve IMO is that unlike Marvel, DC's love interests of old never sat around while the men went out adventuring. Black Canary, Batgirl, Catwoman, Mera, Starfire, and Hawkgirl were all heroes in their own right on top of being love interests. Marvel didn't really do this for some time with the big exception being Wasp early on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DUKE Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: I just re watched Wonder Woman last night and I have a lower opinion of it than I originally did Same. Kind of the same thing with Spider-Man: Homecoming. Seemed awesome when it came out and once you got over the initial excitement of one of the most popular characters not being butchered, the reality of the plot settles in and it's pretty average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: Even then Captain Marvel is relatively new to the big player world in the comics, especially when you consider Wonder Woman's legacy. Most of the remotely comparable women in Marvel were sold off and not apart of the MCU. Jean Grey and Sue Storm for instance. The only person I can think of with similar clout legacy wise is Janet Van Dynne as a founding Avenger member, but even thats a pretty big stretch from Wonder Woman in terms of significance. While they are attempting to make up for it in the last decade with Kitty Pryde and Emma Frost running the Xmen, Captain Marvel being in the forefront, Thor being a woman for some time (I dont want to spoil that arc so PM if you want more deets), Medusa being the lone ruler of the Inhumans, Kate Bishop being the only Hawkeye with a continuity inclusive ongoing since Matt Fraction's run ended in 2015 (which HEAVILY featured Kate anyways), and all the female legacy/newly introduced heroes like Ms Khan, Riri Williams, Spider-Gwen, Nadia Pym, and Viv Vision. DC really has a strangle hold on Women in comics when they got the big jump with Wonder Woman. However, what really kept them ahead of the curve IMO is that unlike Marvel, DC's love interests of old never sat around while the men went out adventuring. Black Canary, Batgirl, Catwoman, Mera, Starfire, and Hawkgirl were all heroes in their own right on top of being love interests. Marvel didn't really do this for some time with the big exception being Wasp early on. I don't read many comics so you won't be spoiling anything. That's one of the reasons I prefer DC. They've had much more interesting females from the get-go. I wasn't a fan of the whole SJW Avengers run either. Iron Heart, Jane Thor, Cho Hulk, etc. were not good additions to Marvel comics. Thankfully Miles has made up for it and more. He'll be mainstream soon if he isn't already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: I don't read many comics so you won't be spoiling anything. That's one of the reasons I prefer DC. They've had much more interesting females from the get-go. I wasn't a fan of the whole SJW Avengers run either. Iron Heart, Jane Thor, Cho Hulk, etc. were not good additions to Marvel comics. Thankfully Miles has made up for it and more. He'll be mainstream soon if he isn't already. Miles is more or less main stream. He has consistently sustained his solo ongoing since the Ultimate universe folded. I actually enjoyed the Lady Thor run better than.. well any Thor run I ever read. It wasnt even that she was a woman at the time, the story telling was just GOOD and the mystery thread tying the run together of WHO IS THIS??? was great. Iron Heart is still shaky, they brought her in because Tony was getting a "day off" (he was technically dead, but dont worry he built himself a new body!). Insiders will tell you his layoff was supposed to be longer than it was and Riri was supposed to fill the gap. I like her character but the creative teams on her have, well, sucked. Flip side of that, Riri, Cho, Miles along with Khamala and Viv Vision formed "The Champions" after they were fed up with how the Avengers handled things. This title was EXTREMELY popular. They just flipped it to a new creative team, so we will see how it goes, but we dont have them without 2 of those characters you mentioned so I am good with their existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 58 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: Miles is more or less main stream. He has consistently sustained his solo ongoing since the Ultimate universe folded. I actually enjoyed the Lady Thor run better than.. well any Thor run I ever read. It wasnt even that she was a woman at the time, the story telling was just GOOD and the mystery thread tying the run together of WHO IS THIS??? was great. Iron Heart is still shaky, they brought her in because Tony was getting a "day off" (he was technically dead, but dont worry he built himself a new body!). Insiders will tell you his layoff was supposed to be longer than it was and Riri was supposed to fill the gap. I like her character but the creative teams on her have, well, sucked. Flip side of that, Riri, Cho, Miles along with Khamala and Viv Vision formed "The Champions" after they were fed up with how the Avengers handled things. This title was EXTREMELY popular. They just flipped it to a new creative team, so we will see how it goes, but we dont have them without 2 of those characters you mentioned so I am good with their existence. I'm not so sure how successful, well-received or popular those series could really be. Considering Marvel admitted that whole movement led to a lack of sales and then blamed fans for it. https://cosmicbook.news/marvel-comics-blames-fans-low-sales-not-themselves Champions looks to have been fairly successful but the majority of the characters have not been well received. Reason being they aren't actually new, they just filled someone else's spot. Which isn't a good way to introduce new characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 34 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: I'm not so sure how successful, well-received or popular those series could really be. Considering Marvel admitted that whole movement led to a lack of sales and then blamed fans for it. https://cosmicbook.news/marvel-comics-blames-fans-low-sales-not-themselves Champions looks to have been fairly successful but the majority of the characters have not been well received. Reason being they aren't actually new, they just filled someone else's spot. Which isn't a good way to introduce new characters. That article cherry picks its own listed source: Quote Discussed candidly by some of the retailers at the summit, we heard that some were not happy with the false abandonment of the core Marvel heroes and, contrary to what some said about characters “not working,” the sticking factor and popularity for a majority of these new titles and characters like Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, The Mighty Thor, Spider-Gwen, Miles Morales, and Moon Girl, continue to prove that our fans and retailers ARE excited about these new heroes. And let me be clear, our new heroes are not going anywhere! We are proud and excited to keep introducing unique characters that reflect new voices and new experiences into the Marvel Universe and pair them with our iconic heroes. "We have also been hearing from stores that welcome and champion our new characters and titles and want more! They've invigorated their own customer base and helped them grow their stores because of it. So we're getting both sides of the story and the only upcoming change we're making is to ensure we don't lose focus of our core heroes. Its also talking about the 2016 market, which is ancient in terms of comic trends. A LOT has changed since then. The Lady Thor arc has ended. Ms. Marvel's ongoing is, well ongoing and her trades have made it onto the NY times best seller list. Miles was the LEAD character ahead of any iteration of Peter Parker in the last Spiderman event. Logan is back, Steve Rogers is back, Tony Stark is back, Thor is still unworthy but Jane is unable to wield the hammer, etc etc. I think the big issue with Marvel's decrease in issue sales is two things when you boil it down. First and foremost, the writing was BAD and kind of all over the place. Civil War II was boring. Secret Wars was really their only good big scale event in 7+ years, and even that gets mixed reviews. So again, writing across the board was just not good. To top that off, as you alluded to, they got rid of a bunch of characters seemingly all at once. Thor was unworthy. Steve Rogers was old and feeble. The Fantastic Four was fixing the universe in some pan dimensional area. Peter Parker was not Peter Parker (Otto took over his body). Wolverine and Cyclops were dead (the latter having killed off Xavier). Tony Stark was "missing". Bruce Banner was shot and killed by Hawkeye. There are probably more I just cant remember. Point is, they did all this almost all at once. Thats like DC not printing books featuring the Trinity anymore at the same time. Like... why? Of courser your sales are going to go down, you nixed like all your popular characters. I dont think the folly was the new characters. I think it was expecting some (not all) of them to come in and rake in sales similar to their predecessors like Falcon Cap. That just isnt a reasonable expectation and I'd like to meet the committee who thought it was a good idea to take that concept and apply to all their top selling books. The fact that a lot of the new characters, legacy or otherwise, are doing well in their own books alongside the old guard speaks to the idea that it wasnt quite these characters or their diversity that influenced low sales, it was the absence of the tried and true that hurt Marvel. Expecting new characters to fill the big boys shoes is unrealistic no matter the circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 21 hours ago, THE DUKE said: Same. Kind of the same thing with Spider-Man: Homecoming. Seemed awesome when it came out and once you got over the initial excitement of one of the most popular characters not being butchered, the reality of the plot settles in and it's pretty average. I never thought Wonder Woman was that good. It wasn't bad, but the villains were horribly done, the story was mediocre, and the CG was pretty laughable at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said: I never thought Wonder Woman was that good. It wasn't bad, but the villains were horribly done, the story was mediocre, and the CG was pretty laughable at times. So, par for DC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breesus mode Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 On 2/19/2019 at 11:20 AM, Deadpulse said: I just re watched Wonder Woman last night and I have a lower opinion of it than I originally did The ending is complete trash and really brought the rest of the movie down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breesus mode Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) Side note; I really love the first 2/3-3/4 of WW, once they get to the climax it just turns into the typical DC clusterfurk, and its really infuriating given how good the rest of the movie was. Edited February 21, 2019 by Breesus mode 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 6 hours ago, kingseanjohn said: So, par for DC Haha....exactly, but at least Wonder Woman stayed pretty true to the characters, did the heroes well, and didnt try to shove too much into one movie. With Wonder Woman, I didnt come out feeling disappointed like i did with BvS and JL....I just came away thinking I saw an okay-ish movie I expected to be just that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 So I re-watched Man of Steel over the weekend, and I remember seeing it in the theater and walking out thinking, wow that wasn't that great. Now I look back and its probably the best movie of the current DC lineup of movies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DUKE Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, MKnight82 said: So I re-watched Man of Steel over the weekend, and I remember seeing it in the theater and walking out thinking, wow that wasn't that great. Now I look back and its probably the best movie of the current DC lineup of movies. A large part of that was probably having expectations. DC properties these day have a low bar to hurdle, but the hype was huge for Man of Steel. At the time I thought they botched the ending, but was a big fan of most of it. I have to agree that it's held up as the best of the DCEU. I haven't seen Aquaman though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Man of Steel was close to being amazing. Too much damage and destruction in the climax and how they handled Jonathan's death really hurt it for me. I would have loved to see Superman struggle with his decision and mindset after killing Zod in a sequel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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