The Good, the Bad, the Raiders finally showed up vs. Houston (Post-game Chat)

[true2form]

20 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

But with a defense this bad, your saying in those 6 drives the offense has to score just about every drive to win games. That's not even close to a good recipe. My issue with the defense is I rather they give up a long td or create a turnover being aggressive instead of dying a slow death every drive. We suck at zone, every number shows it. But we still play man at one of the lowest rates in the league. When we blitz we have one of the best pressure rates in the league. Guess what, we blitz at one if the lowest rates in the league. How do that make any sense.

 

We play defense soft and to stop the big play. Stop run and stop big play. In a league 10 years ago that probably be a solid strategy on defense. Now. Not so much. Teams have no problem throwing 8 to 12 yards passing plays down the field on you. But at this point we have a 7 game sample size at what the defense do well abd what it doesn't. But we keep doing the stuff we don't over and over again. Be aggressive so either way, a stop, beat deep or turnover you giving the offense the ball back as fast as possible. 

Yep.

I'm not disagreeing with you or trying to defend it.  I'm just stating what our defense is. 

The problem I have is I'm not sure if it's coaching style or coaching scared.  Maybe they have no faith in our defense and this is the best strategy they can come up with. I don't like it, but I can definitely understand it. 

[ronjon1990]

55 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

But at this point we have a 7 game sample size at what the defense do well abd what it doesn't. But we keep doing the stuff we don't over and over again. 

This is exactly why it's so frustrating. 

We've seen the offense make adjustments and improve. We're doing a little bit differently every game. Still need to give up doing the end arounds and trick plays so often, but everything from the execution to the situational play calling has gotten better. 

We simply can't say the same for the defense. Situational play calling and adjustments are still bad. We stick to what clearly isn't working. And they haven't improved. Heck, if anything our D has regressed. 

We don't need a top 5-10 defense. We'd be fine with a middle of the road defense. This defense is very close to league bottom bad. 

[Darbsk]

5 hours ago, dante9876 said:

31st in sacks, 29th in TFL. Tied last in takeaways, 26th in 3rd down, 30th in red zone defense .  What exactly is not that bad? It's an awful unit. It's even serviceable to be honest. We are 3rd in ppg and are 2-4.  The 2 teams ahead has a combined 3 losses and played each other. This defense needs to get to serviceable for us to have a chance at anything this season. 

Holy heck, didn’t realise the stats were that bad 😄 

If they can improve 3rd down % and red zone % that could make a huge, huge difference.

[drfrey13]

7 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

This is exactly why it's so frustrating. 

We've seen the offense make adjustments and improve. We're doing a little bit differently every game. Still need to give up doing the end arounds and trick plays so often, but everything from the execution to the situational play calling has gotten better. 

We simply can't say the same for the defense. Situational play calling and adjustments are still bad. We stick to what clearly isn't working. And they haven't improved. Heck, if anything our D has regressed. 

We don't need a top 5-10 defense. We'd be fine with a middle of the road defense. This defense is very close to league bottom bad. 

It is not league bottom bad when it comes to what is most important which is points.  The defense can play well in stretches but we have not invested enough into the defense to make it work.  Not having Hobbs hurt us last week and I believe played into the scheme we ran.  Until we invest more into the defense the best we can hope for is 17-20 range with 23-25 the most likely outcome.  We are setup for the offense to get a lead and the defense to hold onto it.  The overwhelming strength of our defense is suppose to be our edge players.  If we can not jump out to leads the defense is not going to work.  Not saying this is an excuse because the defense has blown leads also but that is just how it is setup.  We are setup for the offense to win games and the defense to not lose games.  If they hold the other team to under 25 points they did their job.  If our offense puts up 30 they did their job.  You can not hold them to the same standard when we have clearly decided to help one over the other.  We talk about how the previous group hurt the team but that has been overwhelmingly on the defensive side of the ball.  How good does this defense look if we just made good picks in 2019 and 2020 on defense?  The defense has played to the expected level overall in 5 out of 6 games.  Not a good level but an expected level.

[drfrey13]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Holy heck, didn’t realise the stats were that bad 😄 

If they can improve 3rd down % and red zone % that could make a huge, huge difference.

Do we not all agree that what this team has on offense we should be scoring 30 a game?  Our TOP is 30 minutes so we are right down the middle.  How many games has the offense had the ball at the end of the game down less than a score?  We can pull as many stats as ossible but what it comes down to is the offense and defense have been on the field the same amount and the offense has not been able to capitalize at the end when given a chance.

Chargers held to 7 points in the 2nd half

Cardinals we should have fired the hole team

Titans we held them to 76 yards and no points in the 2nd half

Broncos we held them to 1 TD and beside that they had 1 1st down in the 2nd half

Chiefs we needed to play better but still got the ball back down 1 with 2:30 remaining

Texans scored a FG and TD on the 1st 2 drives of the 2nd half but then we got a 3 and out, pick 6, and a TO on downs

We can pull out bulk stats but the offense has been given a chance at the end of every loss.

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Do we not all agree that what this team has on offense we should be scoring 30 a game?  Our TOP is 30 minutes so we are right down the middle.  How many games has the offense had the ball at the end of the game down less than a score?  We can pull as many stats as ossible but what it comes down to is the offense and defense have been on the field the same amount and the offense has not been able to capitalize at the end when given a chance.

Chargers held to 7 points in the 2nd half

Cardinals we should have fired the hole team

Titans we held them to 76 yards and no points in the 2nd half

Broncos we held them to 1 TD and beside that they had 1 1st down in the 2nd half

Chiefs we needed to play better but still got the ball back down 1 with 2:30 remaining

Texans scored a FG and TD on the 1st 2 drives of the 2nd half but then we got a 3 and out, pick 6, and a TO on downs

We can pull out bulk stats but the offense has been given a chance at the end of every loss.

No. 

30 points per game would be just behind the Chiefs, and they're aided in topping it by a 44 point game, and just ahead of the Bills. 

30 ppg is very very difficult and even looking at the last few teams to do so almost all play in divisions that were absolute trash. 

Teams that give up an average of 23-25 ppg do not win often, regardless of how good their offenses are. If your defense is giving up that much, they're an objective problem. We've given up less than 24 points only twice and only against horrid offenses.

The formula being talked about- jumping out to big leads, isn't a formula. If that's how we're set up by design, fire whoever decided that. Because that is what league bottom defenses (and teams) do. 

[dante9876]

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Do we not all agree that what this team has on offense we should be scoring 30 a game?  Our TOP is 30 minutes so we are right down the middle.  How many games has the offense had the ball at the end of the game down less than a score?  We can pull as many stats as ossible but what it comes down to is the offense and defense have been on the field the same amount and the offense has not been able to capitalize at the end when given a chance.

Chargers held to 7 points in the 2nd half

Cardinals we should have fired the hole team

Titans we held them to 76 yards and no points in the 2nd half

Broncos we held them to 1 TD and beside that they had 1 1st down in the 2nd half

Chiefs we needed to play better but still got the ball back down 1 with 2:30 remaining

Texans scored a FG and TD on the 1st 2 drives of the 2nd half but then we got a 3 and out, pick 6, and a TO on downs

We can pull out bulk stats but the offense has been given a chance at the end of every loss.

No I don't agree offense should be scoring 30 points a game. Only one team currently is doing that. We domt have a better qb than any of the teams avg more points and our team hasnt been in the same system as those qbs or teams either. Top 5 In scoring is what I expected. They are number 3.

 

The defense has played 2 bottom 5 offenses., 1 top ten and is still bottom 10 in points allowed.  I didn't expect that. Honestly go back to offseason threads alot of people thought defense would be better this year. It has regressed. 

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

No. 

30 points per game would be just behind the Chiefs, and they're aided in topping it by a 44 point game, and just ahead of the Bills. 

30 ppg is very very difficult and even looking at the last few teams to do so almost all play in divisions that were absolute trash. 

Teams that give up an average of 23-25 ppg do not win often, regardless of how good their offenses are. If your defense is giving up that much, they're an objective problem. We've given up less than 24 points only twice and only against horrid offenses.

The formula being talked about- jumping out to big leads, isn't a formula. If that's how we're set up by design, fire whoever decided that. Because that is what league bottom defenses (and teams) do. 

Okay so if we are not suppose to be a 30 point team per game then why were we a 27 point per game team in 2020 and 26 point per game team in 2021 before Gruden was canned and Ruggs car incident.  Is Adams not an upgrade over Ruggs?  Is McDaniels not an upgrade over Gruden.  McDaniels the red zone coach just needs to turn 1 red zone FG a game into a TD and we are there.  We went all in on offense and gave ourselves a 3 year window.  This is what so many have said to me but we did so by keeping the same production from the Gruden years on offense and the defense getting worse.  I thought some have been saying the O turned the corner and is improving.  Did they not just average 33 points per game in the last 3 games.  Is this offense the savior of this team or did we just waste picks and cap on the offense?  I will attempt to answer.  If the Offense could close out games the way they are suppose to that is a TD against the Chargers (just one good throw on a Carr int), a FG against the Cardinals (Renfrow not fumbling), a FG against the Titans (1 incomplete pass to Waller instead of an Int leads to an easy FG), and a FG against the Chiefs (Adams with a clean catch getting two feet down or even not running into Renfrow).  That is 16 extra point putting us at 29.9 points per game and a 6-0 record maybe.  This team has done what was expected except it has not executed when needed at the beginning of the year.  Our defense is not going to win us many games because McDaniels did not want to commit to it this year.  Maybe we can turn this around next year if we put some effort into it but this year we just have to hope the defense is good enough and not good.  As for the points per game I will not even count the 2 defensive scores but the fumble return for a TD was not the defense giving up points so our defense has given up 24 points per game.  The defense has given up under 24 points 3 times, gave up 24 points twice, and gave up over 24 once.

And Mcdaniels and Ziegler decided that is how this team is going to be this year.  Not entirely their fault.  They have to wait for the Gruden bad contracts and draft picks to be gone.

[BackinBlack]

13 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Do we not all agree that what this team has on offense we should be scoring 30 a game?  Our TOP is 30 minutes so we are right down the middle.  

A lot of our TOP is that our D gives up long drives as well. 
we average the longest time per drive, but we don’t get many drives. 
 

I’ve given a hint in my first sentence, but I’ll let you figure out why we are in the middle of TOP, while averaging the longest Time per drive. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

10 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

No. 

30 points per game would be just behind the Chiefs, and they're aided in topping it by a 44 point game, and just ahead of the Bills. 

30 ppg is very very difficult and even looking at the last few teams to do so almost all play in divisions that were absolute trash. 

Teams that give up an average of 23-25 ppg do not win often, regardless of how good their offenses are. If your defense is giving up that much, they're an objective problem. We've given up less than 24 points only twice and only against horrid offenses.

The formula being talked about- jumping out to big leads, isn't a formula. If that's how we're set up by design, fire whoever decided that. Because that is what league bottom defenses (and teams) do. 

Isn’t our offense roster better than kc?

buff I agree has a better offensive roster

we have arguably the best wr, rb, slot, te in the nfl

& def has actually kept 3 teams under 24 Ariz, den and hou

[NCOUGHMAN]

8 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Okay so if we are not suppose to be a 30 point team per game then why were we a 27 point per game team in 2020 and 26 point per game team in 2021 before Gruden was canned and Ruggs car incident.  Is Adams not an upgrade over Ruggs?  Is McDaniels not an upgrade over Gruden.  McDaniels the red zone coach just needs to turn 1 red zone FG a game into a TD and we are there.  We went all in on offense and gave ourselves a 3 year window.  This is what so many have said to me but we did so by keeping the same production from the Gruden years on offense and the defense getting worse.  I thought some have been saying the O turned the corner and is improving.  Did they not just average 33 points per game in the last 3 games.  Is this offense the savior of this team or did we just waste picks and cap on the offense?  I will attempt to answer.  If the Offense could close out games the way they are suppose to that is a TD against the Chargers (just one good throw on a Carr int), a FG against the Cardinals (Renfrow not fumbling), a FG against the Titans (1 incomplete pass to Waller instead of an Int leads to an easy FG), and a FG against the Chiefs (Adams with a clean catch getting two feet down or even not running into Renfrow).  That is 16 extra point putting us at 29.9 points per game and a 6-0 record maybe.  This team has done what was expected except it has not executed when needed at the beginning of the year.  Our defense is not going to win us many games because McDaniels did not want to commit to it this year.  Maybe we can turn this around next year if we put some effort into it but this year we just have to hope the defense is good enough and not good.  As for the points per game I will not even count the 2 defensive scores but the fumble return for a TD was not the defense giving up points so our defense has given up 24 points per game.  The defense has given up under 24 points 3 times, gave up 24 points twice, and gave up over 24 once.

And Mcdaniels and Ziegler decided that is how this team is going to be this year.  Not entirely their fault.  They have to wait for the Gruden bad contracts and draft picks to be gone.

This I don’t understand how so much improvement was added on offense but the expectations stay the same. Before the season people were claiming we’d be putting up 30 burgers on everyone. What happened?

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Isn’t our offense roster better than kc?

buff I agree has a better offensive roster

we have arguably the best wr, rb, slot, te in the nfl

& def has actually kept 3 teams under 24 Ariz, den and hou

No our roster isn't better than KC's and anyone who said that is guilty of gross hyperbole 

Edited October 29, 2022 by ronjon1990
Arizona's offense was held under 24.

[BackinBlack]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

This I don’t understand how so much improvement was added on offense but the expectations stay the same. Before the season people were claiming we’d be putting up 30 burgers on everyone. What happened?

some people expected it to happen week 1, others understood that it takes time. 
Weve done it the last 3 weeks. 

Expectations on this board are crazy for our O. 
We should score every drive or else our O sucks. 
If our d makes one stop, they are doing good enough. 

LOL

[raidr4life]

16 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

It is not league bottom bad when it comes to what is most important which is points.  The defense can play well in stretches but we have not invested enough into the defense to make it work.  Not having Hobbs hurt us last week and I believe played into the scheme we ran.  Until we invest more into the defense the best we can hope for is 17-20 range with 23-25 the most likely outcome.  We are setup for the offense to get a lead and the defense to hold onto it.  The overwhelming strength of our defense is suppose to be our edge players.  If we can not jump out to leads the defense is not going to work.  Not saying this is an excuse because the defense has blown leads also but that is just how it is setup.  We are setup for the offense to win games and the defense to not lose games.  If they hold the other team to under 25 points they did their job.  If our offense puts up 30 they did their job.  You can not hold them to the same standard when we have clearly decided to help one over the other.  We talk about how the previous group hurt the team but that has been overwhelmingly on the defensive side of the ball.  How good does this defense look if we just made good picks in 2019 and 2020 on defense?  The defense has played to the expected level overall in 5 out of 6 games.  Not a good level but an expected level.

Exactly it's a talent issue and we all knew that going in. This defense was pieced together with a bunch of role players and guys off the street.

[raidr4life]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

This I don’t understand how so much improvement was added on offense but the expectations stay the same. Before the season people were claiming we’d be putting up 30 burgers on everyone. What happened?

Reality is Carr is not a 30 point a game QB so now we have to rely on a defense we knew lacked talent.