The STL Cardinals Thread - New Season, Same Old Cardinals?

[StLunatic88]

Since every BFIB screamed from the mountaintops that Mo & Co were idiots, and that Gorman had to be better than what we were trotting out there, lets actually take a look at what the wunderkind has been up to lately;

The month of June, He is hitting .182, Striking out 1/3 times he steps to the plate, with that being nearly a 7/1 K/BB ratio. He has as many HRs as HBPs (2) and only one other extra base hit beyond those dingers.

Somehow fans are still thinking about the few hot days he had at the end of May. In a 3 game stretch, he want 4 for 4 (MIL) and 3 for 3 (SD) with a HR in each game (dont pay attention to the 0 for 3 with 2 Ks in between though). Which was fun, and showed what kind of potential he has. But outside of those two games this is what we are getting a Sub .190 hitter, with 2 HRs, 4 Doubles, 7 RBI, with a 4+/1 K/BB ratio and nearly 35% K rate.

I really do like Gorman, he has a load of potential, but this happens all the time with this fanbase, they complain about "bOw TiE", and when they finally get their way but were wrong, not a peep.

Gorman belongs in the Minors until he can figure out how to not chase everything. I know he is going to be high on the K rate, but it is detrimental at this point. He is chasing everything in the dirt. 

[holt_bruce81]

2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Since every BFIB screamed from the mountaintops that Mo & Co were idiots, and that Gorman had to be better than what we were trotting out there, lets actually take a look at what the wunderkind has been up to lately;

The month of June, He is hitting .182, Striking out 1/3 times he steps to the plate, with that being nearly a 7/1 K/BB ratio. He has as many HRs as HBPs (2) and only one other extra base hit beyond those dingers.

Somehow fans are still thinking about the few hot days he had at the end of May. In a 3 game stretch, he want 4 for 4 (MIL) and 3 for 3 (SD) with a HR in each game (dont pay attention to the 0 for 3 with 2 Ks in between though). Which was fun, and showed what kind of potential he has. But outside of those two games this is what we are getting a Sub .190 hitter, with 2 HRs, 4 Doubles, 7 RBI, with a 4+/1 K/BB ratio and nearly 35% K rate.

I really do like Gorman, he has a load of potential, but this happens all the time with this fanbase, they complain about "bOw TiE", and when they finally get their way but were wrong, not a peep.

Gorman belongs in the Minors until he can figure out how to not chase everything. I know he is going to be high on the K rate, but it is detrimental at this point. He is chasing everything in the dirt. 

Gorman was ready. It’s his rookie year, there are gonna be ups and downs. He was one of the top prospects in baseball and arguably the best hitting prospect in the Cardinals system. Calling for his promotion wasn’t a “BFIB” thing. It was a Cardinals fan thing. DeJong was hitting like .125 with a 30 wRC+. With absolutely nothing in the power department. It was time. 

[kgarrett12486]

3 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Since every BFIB screamed from the mountaintops that Mo & Co were idiots, and that Gorman had to be better than what we were trotting out there, lets actually take a look at what the wunderkind has been up to lately;

The month of June, He is hitting .182, Striking out 1/3 times he steps to the plate, with that being nearly a 7/1 K/BB ratio. He has as many HRs as HBPs (2) and only one other extra base hit beyond those dingers.

Somehow fans are still thinking about the few hot days he had at the end of May. In a 3 game stretch, he want 4 for 4 (MIL) and 3 for 3 (SD) with a HR in each game (dont pay attention to the 0 for 3 with 2 Ks in between though). Which was fun, and showed what kind of potential he has. But outside of those two games this is what we are getting a Sub .190 hitter, with 2 HRs, 4 Doubles, 7 RBI, with a 4+/1 K/BB ratio and nearly 35% K rate.

I really do like Gorman, he has a load of potential, but this happens all the time with this fanbase, they complain about "bOw TiE", and when they finally get their way but were wrong, not a peep.

Gorman belongs in the Minors until he can figure out how to not chase everything. I know he is going to be high on the K rate, but it is detrimental at this point. He is chasing everything in the dirt. 

While I agree with the sentiment on Mo (and believe me, I've been one of the FO's biggest defenders/supporters on this site), I don't think Gorman is the example to use in this instance. They had a need at the time, with DeJong being non-existent, Sosa was still on the IL and slowly working back and Donovan was still the unknown. Gorman was by far your best internal option to provide offense and be able to play 2B.

With Donovan thriving currently, your seeing Oli play the hot hand over the status (which I 100% agree with in this case) and Gorman getting sparse playing time. I think he does need to go back down at some point and like you said, refine his approach. 

Sounds like TON might be hitting the IL soon (which sucks because he was really turning it around since he came off the IL) with a hamstring strain. So, you may see Gorman getting more looks again (off the bench, as I think Yepez gets 1st look in LF), as not sure what other option you have to bring up (Nootbar is not the answer) unless we're willing to start the clock on Burleson for essentially a few days/weeks until TON gets back...

[kgarrett12486]

22 hours ago, ttitansfan4life said:

They gotta stop playing Pujols against righties. This is pathetic. Yepez and Gorman just rotting on the bench.

They had a breakdown of his last 5 starts against RHP's. Of those, 3 were justified (1 game - Goldy had a day off, 2 game - was a double header, 3 game - injuries and didn't have better option to play 1B besides Sosa), but the last two games, really didn't make sense.

The Marmol made some comments after the game yesterday addressing it. He essentially admitted they played Pujols based on it being his last run at Fenway and playing to the crowd. I get it, but that can't continue in every last series (ala he shouldn't be doing that when we play in PHI over 4th of July weekend).  

Edited June 20, 2022 by kgarrett12486

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, holt_bruce81 said:

Gorman was ready. It’s his rookie year, there are gonna be ups and downs. He was one of the top prospects in baseball and arguably the best hitting prospect in the Cardinals system. Calling for his promotion wasn’t a “BFIB” thing. It was a Cardinals fan thing. DeJong was hitting like .125 with a 30 wRC+. With absolutely nothing in the power department. It was time. 

What about his time in the majors says he was ready? DeJong needing to be demoted and Gorman "needing" to be called up are not directly correlated. The worry about Gorman was always the Strikeouts, it was bad in the minors, and was going to be a problem in the majors. People said "hes hitting HRs you have to bring him up" and yes it was mostly BFIBs, because they dont understand the K-rate issue.

Donavan is your answer to DeJong, Gorman was a hope an a prayer at this moment until he can not swing at every pitch in the dirt. Again, I think he can still be a good hitter in the majors, but he was thrown in too quickly, and to say any different is just denial. The Strike outs werent getting better while moving up a level, and the HRs were going to go down. And at the time the response was "fine, Ill take strikeouts because he can hit 10 HRs a month" well.....

Edited June 20, 2022 by StLunatic88

[StLunatic88]

39 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

While I agree with the sentiment on Mo (and believe me, I've been one of the FO's biggest defenders/supporters on this site), I don't think Gorman is the example to use in this instance. They had a need at the time, with DeJong being non-existent, Sosa was still on the IL and slowly working back and Donovan was still the unknown. Gorman was by far your best internal option to provide offense and be able to play 2B.

Again, Gorman was a play to the fan base, it wasnt the logical on field play because it was a 2 fold issue, he was going to be worse at striking out, AND he caused a defensive issue.

And to further this, Gorman was more "unknown" than Donovan at that moment. Before Gorman was brought up, Donovan was already hitting .316 on the year. Right in the middle of a 10 game stretch that he was hitting .400, pulling himself up from where he started at .125 at the plate. Plus again, he keeps your defense in line. 

And Im not even factoring in what Yepez was doing at that time as the other bat who should have been in the lineup. 

Did we have a better option to bring up than Gorman, not sure that we did. But the fact is he was not ready, he hasnt been good since coming up, and it gets brushed to the side because hes "the top prospect". That still holds weight into the future, but today in the middle of the 2022 season, he hasnt shown to be the answer, and is getting dangerously close to the Paul DeJong numbers that got him sent down for Gorman.

[kgarrett12486]

30 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Again, Gorman was a play to the fan base, it wasnt the logical on field play because it was a 2 fold issue, he was going to be worse at striking out, AND he caused a defensive issue.

And to further this, Gorman was more "unknown" than Donovan at that moment. Before Gorman was brought up, Donovan was already hitting .316 on the year. Right in the middle of a 10 game stretch that he was hitting .400, pulling himself up from where he started at .125 at the plate. Plus again, he keeps your defense in line. 

And Im not even factoring in what Yepez was doing at that time as the other bat who should have been in the lineup. 

Did we have a better option to bring up than Gorman, not sure that we did. But the fact is he was not ready, he hasnt been good since coming up, and it gets brushed to the side because hes "the top prospect". That still holds weight into the future, but today in the middle of the 2022 season, he hasnt shown to be the answer, and is getting dangerously close to the Paul DeJong numbers that got him sent down for Gorman.

The Cards FO doesn't play/feel the pressure of the fanbase to promote top prospects, which is partially why I respect them so much. They never have under Mo. They promote when they feel players have earned that promotion, or have a need. Gorman was hitting at AAA, despite the high K rate a the time.   

Donovan didn't start taking off until May 10th with the bat. I mean that was literally a 10 game stretch in 10 days before Gorman got the call, so at that point during that stretch, your still deciphering whether it's real, or just a fluke streak ala a Bo Hart. 

Yepez was never going to be an option at either MIF spot, so he doesn't factor in, as they had a direct replacement need at the MIF spots. Like I said, Sosa was just coming off the IL and still working his way back to full strength from CV-19 and you had Edman and Donovan having to play everyday and even double headers and we had other injuries to contend with as well. They needed another guy who could play 2B (even if it was sub-par by our standards) and still have the offensive prowess/potential to justify being in the line-up.

That's where I disagree, because I think the move made sense at the time. Fast forward to now - yes I agree, Gorman looks overmatched right now and clearly has holes in his swing he needs to refine at AAA. It's also a good thing though he got up here to taste both that success and that failure, so he can actually make the adjustments needed. 

And I get the point your making  with the fanbase hammering the FO for not bringing the top guys up right away and then going silent when they struggle, or pulling a 180- and saying they're not good/ready. I just don't think this scenario is the ideal picture of that based off what was occurring with the needs of the club at the time.  

Edited June 20, 2022 by kgarrett12486

[StLunatic88]

4 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

The Cards FO doesn't play/feel the pressure of the fanbase to promote top prospects, which is partially why I respect them so much. They never have under Mo. They promote when they feel players have earned that promotion, or have a need. Gorman was hitting at AAA, despite the high K rate a the time.   

I think you are giving them WAY too much credit. They dont often cave to the pressure, because there isnt usually much from St Louis media, but they have made moves for other reasons than just on field baseball before. And this Gorman stuff has been chirped at them since the end of last season. And they also found the perfect spot where they were sending down DeJong and needed a spot starter, so they pulled the 2 Top Prospects, who grew up together, and spun that to the Media and BFIBs more than whatever production they were actually going to get 

8 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Donovan didn't start taking off until May 10th with the bat. I mean that was literally a 10 game stretch in 10 days before Gorman got the call, so at that point during that stretch, your still deciphering whether it's real, or just a fluke streak ala a Bo Hart. 

You mean when they started playing him every day? Im not saying that they should have just assumed that Donavan was the answer for the season, but he was the answer Right Then. I know Gorman is a much higher touted prospect, but he is also a Rookie who has never seen this pitching before. Its either pure hubris, OR they had some ulterior motives to the move 

12 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Yepez was never going to be an option at either MIF spot, so he doesn't factor in, as they had a direct replacement need at the MIF spots.

Gorman is BARELY an option at one MIF spot right now. My point with brining up Yepez was that one of the other lines being repeated was "if he cant field he should atleast DH". Yepez was that guys (and still should be, but thats a different conversation)

15 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

And I get the point your making  with the fanbase hammering the FO for not bringing the top guys up right away and then going silent when they struggle, or pulling a 180- and saying they're not good/ready. I just don't think this scenario is the ideal picture of that based off what was occurring with the needs of the club at the time.  

Yea, I guess Im hammering 2 points here and they are getting melded together. I understand the Gorman call up, I didnt love it, it was fine, I just feel like there was more to their motivation than just "this is the best baseball move right now" And again, thats fine, they are running a business.

And then the other side, many people talk about treating all these guys the same regardless of status (draft pick/contract/prospect ranking) but they dont stick with it, because it invalidates their previous take/stance. Yes, Paul DeJong (a guy who I really like) has been beyond awful, and needed to be dealt with. But so have Yadi, and Albert, and O'Neill was also which turned out to be an injury. But now so is our Top Hitting Prospect, and we need to face that reality, but it seems like the entire fanbase is just closing that door and ignoring it like we're Kay Corleone over here. 

[ttitansfan4life]

Welp that sucks. Dude finally starts hitting and lands back on the IL right before the most important series of the year.

[ttitansfan4life]

 

[ttitansfan4life]

2 run HR to the #9 hitter smh

[JonStark]

10 hours ago, ttitansfan4life said:

2 run HR to the #9 hitter smh

That sucks but you can't win a game when you score 0 runs. Need the offense to get it together today. 

[kgarrett12486]

17 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

1] I think you are giving them WAY too much credit. They dont often cave to the pressure, because there isnt usually much from St Louis media, but they have made moves for other reasons than just on field baseball before. And this Gorman stuff has been chirped at them since the end of last season. And they also found the perfect spot where they were sending down DeJong and needed a spot starter, so they pulled the 2 Top Prospects, who grew up together, and spun that to the Media and BFIBs more than whatever production they were actually going to get 

2] You mean when they started playing him every day? Im not saying that they should have just assumed that Donavan was the answer for the season, but he was the answer Right Then. I know Gorman is a much higher touted prospect, but he is also a Rookie who has never seen this pitching before. Its either pure hubris, OR they had some ulterior motives to the move 

3] Gorman is BARELY an option at one MIF spot right now. My point with brining up Yepez was that one of the other lines being repeated was "if he cant field he should atleast DH". Yepez was that guys (and still should be, but thats a different conversation)

Yea, I guess Im hammering 2 points here and they are getting melded together. I understand the Gorman call up, I didnt love it, it was fine, I just feel like there was more to their motivation than just "this is the best baseball move right now" And again, thats fine, they are running a business.

And then the other side, many people talk about treating all these guys the same regardless of status (draft pick/contract/prospect ranking) but they dont stick with it, because it invalidates their previous take/stance. Yes, Paul DeJong (a guy who I really like) has been beyond awful, and needed to be dealt with. But so have Yadi, and Albert, and O'Neill was also which turned out to be an injury. But now so is our Top Hitting Prospect, and we need to face that reality, but it seems like the entire fanbase is just closing that door and ignoring it like we're Kay Corleone over here. 

1] IDK, I'm sure there has been a move somewhere in the past 15 years with Mo at the helm that wasn't either on field related or service time related, but they're few and far between and honestly, I can't even remember one that comes to mind. They don't let the media/fans influence their decisions 95+% of the time, which is a testament to them because there are organizations out there that do.

2] I mean Donovan was still essentially playing everyday even when Gorman got the call-up and was in the line-up other than when he was giving Donovan the day off from the spot; not sure what else we would've wanted them to do? They tried the other internal 2B option they felt was ready - Kramer Robertson in the emergency situation and it wasn't pretty for that game. Agree with you on Yepez though; no reason he shouldn't be the everyday DH at this point (or playing LF while TON is out). 

3] I've actually been surprised with Gorman at 2B. He's made some plays, which I didn't think he could get to range wise. He's also made those cringe worthy mistakes we expected too, but that's part of the the curve with him and was expected. Is he a better option than Sosa or Donovan defensively? Absolutely not. he also hasn't been the detriment we thought he might be defensively in limited action. 

I think they've handled the Gorman situation (based off need at the time) correctly during the last 4 weeks. However, I'm in agreement with you though moving forward (meaning now), with Donovan showing his small sample size during the time wasn't a fluke and Sosa being back healthy, their isn't that true need anymore for Gorman. He is struggling immensely with the AB's and looks overmatched at this point. Now is the time he needs to be sent back to AAA to refine his swing. He got the taste of success and failure at the big league level (something important for these young guys development) and now can focus his efforts on correction. I think the majority of fans on this site (can't speak to BFIB and the causal fans) would agree with that sentiment. 

 

[ttitansfan4life]

3 hours ago, JonStark said:

That sucks but you can't win a game when you score 0 runs. Need the offense to get it together today. 

Yea I’ve come to expect this offense to get completely shut down by any good pitcher they face. Burnes last 3 starts before last night, he had given up 8 runs. The last two times he’s faced STL, 0 runs combined. Hell, we’ve only got 4 hits in two games against him. Not to mention the 21 strikeouts. Embarrassing 

Edited June 21, 2022 by ttitansfan4life

[holt_bruce81]

Baseball America just came out with their new top 100….

10. Jordan Walker 3B
18. Nolan Gorman 2B 
41. Matthew Liberatore LHP
98. Masyn Winn SS
99. Gordon Graceffo RHP