2024 NFL Draft

[NYRaider]

[jimkelly02]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:29 AM, NYRaider said:

If we end up with Williams…. There’s no way JMD is the coach, right?  If he’s not who do you think is an option or the best option?

[Jeremy408]

11 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

If we end up with Williams…. There’s no way JMD is the coach, right?  If he’s not who do you think is an option or the best option?

Eric Bienemy if he does well with Washington 

[big_palooka]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Eric Bienemy if he does well with Washington 

lol. There is a reason this guy hasn't gotten a HC job. Half the league has interviewed him and passed over the last 5 cycles. He's never been considered amongst the finalist for a job.

[Jeremy408]

22 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

lol. There is a reason this guy hasn't gotten a HC job. Half the league has interviewed him and passed over the last 5 cycles. He's never been considered amongst the finalist for a job.

Yeah, but I think that might be because of a few reasons:

1. He coached under Andy Reid. People from his coaching tree tend to not be successful(very similar to the Patriots tree). The only exception would probably be Doug Peterson.

2. There's the whole domestic violence thing which is completely justified.
 

3. He's black. Just to keep it real black coaches don't always get the same opportunities and when they do, they are usually on a very short leash.

Although if he was able to find success in Washington, with a quarterback that was drafted in the fifth round last year, I think that would add to his potential head coaching portfolio.

[drfrey13]

46 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Yeah, but I think that might be because of a few reasons:

1. He coached under Andy Reid. People from his coaching tree tend to not be successful(very similar to the Patriots tree). The only exception would probably be Doug Peterson.

2. There's the whole domestic violence thing which is completely justified.
 

3. He's black. Just to keep it real black coaches don't always get the same opportunities and when they do, they are usually on a very short leash.

Although if he was able to find success in Washington, with a quarterback that was drafted in the fifth round last year, I think that would add to his potential head coaching portfolio.

Lets just say you are correct with all 3 reasons.

1) He has interviewed enough times that someone by now should have seen the talent/knowledge, if there, to give him a chance.

2) How long does he need to keep his nose clean, if #1 is not an issue, for a team to have given him a chance?  In the NFL if the talent is there they will put you on payroll.  It is possible that his past is so murky that his talent does not justify hiring him with the amount of talent he has.  Therefore a combination of 1 and 2.

3) I think this one is overblown.  Yes there are a bunch of retread white coaches but I think that is more of a time and experience thing.  It takes time for coaches to move up through the ranks and start getting considered for head coaching jobs.  They first need to be assistants, then coordinators, and then HC.  The amount of black assistant and coordinators has greatly increased so the number of HCs should be expected to increase over the next 5 years.  This process is playing out in the business side of football with a big increase in GMs and executives around the league but this has been going on longer than the fight for HCs opportunities.  This increase could also have a big impact on the racial diversification of HCs.  Now it is very likely that there was a race issue a while back but right now it is more about these men moving their way up through the system.  For Bieniemy I am pretty sure it is the first two options that are the problem.

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

Lets just say you are correct with all 3 reasons.

1) He has interviewed enough times that someone by now should have seen the talent/knowledge, if there, to give him a chance.

2) How long does he need to keep his nose clean, if #1 is not an issue, for a team to have given him a chance?  In the NFL if the talent is there they will put you on payroll.  It is possible that his past is so murky that his talent does not justify hiring him with the amount of talent he has.  Therefore a combination of 1 and 2.

3) I think this one is overblown.  Yes there are a bunch of retread white coaches but I think that is more of a time and experience thing.  It takes time for coaches to move up through the ranks and start getting considered for head coaching jobs.  They first need to be assistants, then coordinators, and then HC.  The amount of black assistant and coordinators has greatly increased so the number of HCs should be expected to increase over the next 5 years.  This process is playing out in the business side of football with a big increase in GMs and executives around the league but this has been going on longer than the fight for HCs opportunities.  This increase could also have a big impact on the racial diversification of HCs.  Now it is very likely that there was a race issue a while back but right now it is more about these men moving their way up through the system.  For Bieniemy I am pretty sure it is the first two options that are the problem.

I think the reality is that there have been stupider hires then it would be for him to be head coach.

I bet you anything that the guy who went to the Bears will get a second chance of the head coach before he gets the first into the head coach.

Think about this: there are currently three black head coaches out of 32 teams in the NFL. One of them currently has the most winning seasons in the NFL. Another one is a former player who was drafted by the team, he is now the head coach of. The third one is a retrad. They only got the job because the former head coach(A known civil rights activist) unexpectedly, retired during the off-season conveniently, after all the head coaching vacancies had been filled already. 

You're telling me that there's only three black coordinators that deserve a head-coaching position? Then think about how many black players there are and how many black assistance there are, and how many black coordinators there are. I'm not one of those guys who thinks everything that happens is racist. But in this case it's just kind of the reality.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Jeremy408

[ronjon1990]

56 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think the reality is that there have been stupider hires then it would be for him to be head coach.

I bet you anything that the guy who went to the Bears will get a second chance of the head coach before he gets the first into the head coach.

Think about this: there are currently three black head coaches out of 32 teams in the NFL. One of them currently has the most winning seasons in the NFL. Another one is a former player who was drafted by the team, he is now the head coach of. The third one is a retrad. They only got the job because the former head coach(A known civil rights activist) unexpectedly, retired during the off-season conveniently, after all the head coaching vacancies had been filled already. 

You're telling me that there's only three black coordinators that deserve a head-coaching position? Then think about how many black players there are and how many black assistance there are, and how many black coordinators there are. I'm not one of those guys who thinks everything that happens is racist. But in this case it's just kind of the reality.

1. Bienemy is a strange case. There's really no telling what the deal with him is. It's not as of there have been zero minority HCs hired over the years he's been considered by fans as a surefire HC hire. There has to be more to the story. Objectively speaking, yes, worse hires have been made. But interviews are subjective, so it has to be more than he has a known past and is black. 

My guess is the above + he was a figurehead OC that has never really run a squad. To be fair, D!ck LeBeau coached for nearly 30 years before a quick stint in Cincy and never sniffed another HC gig despite being one of the most respected and successful minds in the league. Bienemy has no personal track record of success on his own and his run on the Chiefs staff was greatly helped by their on field personnel. Coupled with him not being owed a HC gig.....other than being a name attached to a successful offense as a glorified intern, I don't see why Bienemy is anyone's case study these days. 

2. Yes, but that's incredibly fluid. As @drfrey13 said- and I think his main point was- that will almost assuredly change over the coming years as more minority coaches are hired as coordinators and move onto greater things. There are only 3 right now, but we've seen more. 

3. I agree with @drfrey13 in that the default answer to why there aren't more black HCs is simply "they're black" is overblown. I can name a lot more than 3  coordinators that deserve HC gigs. Hell, I actively wanted Byron Leftwich. Still do. 

But representation isn't just a matter of hiring people. There are a lot of Pacific Islander players in the league too. Can anyone name a single HC, OC, or DC of Pacific Islander descent? It's also important to note that of the 32 NFL HCs, we're not dealing with a monolith. It's decidedly not a matter of 3 black HCs and 29 crusty old white dudes. Robert Saleh, Mike McDaniel, Ron Rivera, they're not "white". Not saying it's an equitable distribution based on the makeup of the league, just highlighting the importance of context and expectations. 

Again, I think we'll see more as time goes on. This latest cycle and the last few just haven't yielded much. A lot of guys haven't retired and spots just weren't open. Like @drfrey13is saying- I think it's more of a logjam than some concerted effort to avoid minority coaches. A lot of assistant coaches and very few HC openings this past cycle, and that happens quite a bit. 

There is a lack of equitable diversity among HCs, but consider this:

Bill, Carroll, Tomlin, Reid, Harbaugh, Rivera. That's roughly 1/5 of the league. All very successful. And all have been a HC of no more than 2 teams for the better part of the last 15+ years. 

1/5 of the league's HCs are considered relatively safe and tenured. 

Then you have several newcomers that have done well enough to be pretty safe- Mike McDaniel, McVay, Saleh, McDermott, Vrabel, etc. These are the jobs that typically remain filled for somewhere around 5-8+ years depending on how things go. By sheer volume, you're probably talking about another 2-3/5 of the HC gigs. 

I find it somewhat disingenuous when people cite the number of total HC jobs in the league compared to minority HCs because it sort of handwaves away that a lot of the positions are simply full for long stretches. We don't have a HC draft. Turnover just isn't that high. 

Of actually available jobs at most given times, there's really not nearly the same statistical discrepancy. 

Example: 

In 2023, 5 HC roles changed. They remained the same ethnicity- 4 white guys and 1 black guy. Ergo, 20% of hires this year were of minority HCs.

That paints a decidedly different picture: 1/5 of available openings chose a black candidate, as opposed to 1/11th of the league having black HCs. 

Is 1/5th a suitable ratio? Probably not. It's not particularly representative. But it's also not as egregious or nefarious as saying 3 of 32 as if all positions were annually available in the first place- especially considering that roughly 20% of the league's total coaching pool have been locked into a spot or 2 for the better part of 2 decades. 

It's just a much more nuanced issue overall than many people care to admit, and I don't think a lot of the arguments do it proper justice. 

 

[bucksavage1]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think the reality is that there have been stupider hires then it would be for him to be head coach.

I bet you anything that the guy who went to the Bears will get a second chance of the head coach before he gets the first into the head coach.

Think about this: there are currently three black head coaches out of 32 teams in the NFL. One of them currently has the most winning seasons in the NFL. Another one is a former player who was drafted by the team, he is now the head coach of. The third one is a retrad. They only got the job because the former head coach(A known civil rights activist) unexpectedly, retired during the off-season conveniently, after all the head coaching vacancies had been filled already. 

You're telling me that there's only three black coordinators that deserve a head-coaching position? Then think about how many black players there are and how many black assistance there are, and how many black coordinators there are. I'm not one of those guys who thinks everything that happens is racist. But in this case it's just kind of the reality.

🎯Agreed. Well said. You have to be living under a rock not to see minority coaches don’t get the same opportunities.

The fact the NFL had to institute a rule to force NFL teams to interview minority candidates and a draft compensation reward for teams who had minority asst hired for HC or management positions proves there had been a huge discrepancy for decades. 
 

Robert Salah, Mike McDaniel and Ron Rivera are the only other minority HC coaches in the NFL

[raidr4life]

On 6/3/2023 at 10:29 PM, NYRaider said:

No matter where we land in the 1st, I think we should draft a QB if the value is there, even if O'Connell shows promise landing a Penix Jr or Quinn Ewers to compete is how you find your guy, and/or depth a long term backup that can win games or trade bait.

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, raidr4life said:

No matter where we land in the 1st, I think we should draft a QB if the value is there, even if O'Connell shows promise landing a Penix Jr or Quinn Ewers to compete is how you find your guy, and/or depth a long term backup that can win games or trade bait.

O'Connell would need to absolutely dominate at an absurd level right out the gate for me to pass on QB in round 1. Like taking over games and carving up D's at record pace.

I liked the pick and his prospects, but as a backup QB/trade bait only. I don't want to run into any situation where we're saddled with a lesser QB just because of a random hot streak of promise like Purdy last year. A guy taken that late isn't likely to have sustained success, if he sees success in the first place. If you "luck" into a late round QB and roll with them short term when your starter goes down, great.

But to plan on it? That would dumb. Even Brady wasn't the Pats long term plan, even after the first couple of years. He took the reigns and circumstances led to him getting to settle into the job. Had he tripped up in the first couple of years, he would've been a goner as starter. He just succeeded at an extended audition prior to becoming the franchise guy. A bad year or even stretch, the early 2000 Pats wouldn't have thought twice about replacing him. 

Same goes for O'Connell for me. I don't care if he wins a Superbowl with the 2023 Raiders. Nick Foles him. But under no circumstances should anyone be clamoring to not take a QB because of anything he does this year. 

[drfrey13]

11 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think the reality is that there have been stupider hires then it would be for him to be head coach.

I bet you anything that the guy who went to the Bears will get a second chance of the head coach before he gets the first into the head coach.

Think about this: there are currently three black head coaches out of 32 teams in the NFL. One of them currently has the most winning seasons in the NFL. Another one is a former player who was drafted by the team, he is now the head coach of. The third one is a retrad. They only got the job because the former head coach(A known civil rights activist) unexpectedly, retired during the off-season conveniently, after all the head coaching vacancies had been filled already. 

You're telling me that there's only three black coordinators that deserve a head-coaching position? Then think about how many black players there are and how many black assistance there are, and how many black coordinators there are. I'm not one of those guys who thinks everything that happens is racist. But in this case it's just kind of the reality.

 

9 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

1. Bienemy is a strange case. There's really no telling what the deal with him is. It's not as of there have been zero minority HCs hired over the years he's been considered by fans as a surefire HC hire. There has to be more to the story. Objectively speaking, yes, worse hires have been made. But interviews are subjective, so it has to be more than he has a known past and is black. 

My guess is the above + he was a figurehead OC that has never really run a squad. To be fair, D!ck LeBeau coached for nearly 30 years before a quick stint in Cincy and never sniffed another HC gig despite being one of the most respected and successful minds in the league. Bienemy has no personal track record of success on his own and his run on the Chiefs staff was greatly helped by their on field personnel. Coupled with him not being owed a HC gig.....other than being a name attached to a successful offense as a glorified intern, I don't see why Bienemy is anyone's case study these days. 

2. Yes, but that's incredibly fluid. As @drfrey13 said- and I think his main point was- that will almost assuredly change over the coming years as more minority coaches are hired as coordinators and move onto greater things. There are only 3 right now, but we've seen more. 

3. I agree with @drfrey13 in that the default answer to why there aren't more black HCs is simply "they're black" is overblown. I can name a lot more than 3  coordinators that deserve HC gigs. Hell, I actively wanted Byron Leftwich. Still do. 

But representation isn't just a matter of hiring people. There are a lot of Pacific Islander players in the league too. Can anyone name a single HC, OC, or DC of Pacific Islander descent? It's also important to note that of the 32 NFL HCs, we're not dealing with a monolith. It's decidedly not a matter of 3 black HCs and 29 crusty old white dudes. Robert Saleh, Mike McDaniel, Ron Rivera, they're not "white". Not saying it's an equitable distribution based on the makeup of the league, just highlighting the importance of context and expectations. 

Again, I think we'll see more as time goes on. This latest cycle and the last few just haven't yielded much. A lot of guys haven't retired and spots just weren't open. Like @drfrey13is saying- I think it's more of a logjam than some concerted effort to avoid minority coaches. A lot of assistant coaches and very few HC openings this past cycle, and that happens quite a bit. 

There is a lack of equitable diversity among HCs, but consider this:

Bill, Carroll, Tomlin, Reid, Harbaugh, Rivera. That's roughly 1/5 of the league. All very successful. And all have been a HC of no more than 2 teams for the better part of the last 15+ years. 

1/5 of the league's HCs are considered relatively safe and tenured. 

Then you have several newcomers that have done well enough to be pretty safe- Mike McDaniel, McVay, Saleh, McDermott, Vrabel, etc. These are the jobs that typically remain filled for somewhere around 5-8+ years depending on how things go. By sheer volume, you're probably talking about another 2-3/5 of the HC gigs. 

I find it somewhat disingenuous when people cite the number of total HC jobs in the league compared to minority HCs because it sort of handwaves away that a lot of the positions are simply full for long stretches. We don't have a HC draft. Turnover just isn't that high. 

Of actually available jobs at most given times, there's really not nearly the same statistical discrepancy. 

Example: 

In 2023, 5 HC roles changed. They remained the same ethnicity- 4 white guys and 1 black guy. Ergo, 20% of hires this year were of minority HCs.

That paints a decidedly different picture: 1/5 of available openings chose a black candidate, as opposed to 1/11th of the league having black HCs. 

Is 1/5th a suitable ratio? Probably not. It's not particularly representative. But it's also not as egregious or nefarious as saying 3 of 32 as if all positions were annually available in the first place- especially considering that roughly 20% of the league's total coaching pool have been locked into a spot or 2 for the better part of 2 decades. 

It's just a much more nuanced issue overall than many people care to admit, and I don't think a lot of the arguments do it proper justice. 

 

 

9 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

🎯Agreed. Well said. You have to be living under a rock not to see minority coaches don’t get the same opportunities.

The fact the NFL had to institute a rule to force NFL teams to interview minority candidates and a draft compensation reward for teams who had minority asst hired for HC or management positions proves there had been a huge discrepancy for decades. 
 

Robert Salah, Mike McDaniel and Ron Rivera are the only other minority HC coaches in the NFL

These are all thought out responses.  I do not think that there is zero prejudice the same way I do not feel it is all prejudice.  Hypothetically if there was a woman that could be the greatest coach of all time would she deserve to get a HC job right away?  Yes.  Would she get a HC job right away?  No.  The reason why is she would have to prove herself and work her way up through the ranks.  Is that sexist?  I do not think so.  The reason why is if you remove the woman from that statement and put me in it instead the answers would be the same as a middle aged male.  The reason would be the same.  I have not proven myself at that level yet.  Now Bieniemy is a different case like @ronjon1990 stated.  I believe there is something else.  Bieniemy has interviewed with 15 teams.  He has been passed over for other non-white coaches.  He has interviewed to replace other non-white coaches.  Now are there some teams that race played a part?  That could easily be a yes but there is something more because other candidates have received opportunities over him and we know it was not a race based decision.  Now if he makes the Commanders a good offensive team then I believe there is almost zero chance he does not get a shot.  But that is just my opinion.

[Jeremy408]

8 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

 

 

These are all thought out responses.  I do not think that there is zero prejudice the same way I do not feel it is all prejudice.  Hypothetically if there was a woman that could be the greatest coach of all time would she deserve to get a HC job right away?  Yes.  Would she get a HC job right away?  No.  The reason why is she would have to prove herself and work her way up through the ranks.  Is that sexist?  I do not think so.  The reason why is if you remove the woman from that statement and put me in it instead the answers would be the same as a middle aged male.  The reason would be the same.  I have not proven myself at that level yet.  Now Bieniemy is a different case like @ronjon1990 stated.  I believe there is something else.  Bieniemy has interviewed with 15 teams.  He has been passed over for other non-white coaches.  He has interviewed to replace other non-white coaches.  Now are there some teams that race played a part?  That could easily be a yes but there is something more because other candidates have received opportunities over him and we know it was not a race based decision.  Now if he makes the Commanders a good offensive team then I believe there is almost zero chance he does not get a shot.  But that is just my opinion.

 

19 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

1. Bienemy is a strange case. There's really no telling what the deal with him is. It's not as of there have been zero minority HCs hired over the years he's been considered by fans as a surefire HC hire. There has to be more to the story. Objectively speaking, yes, worse hires have been made. But interviews are subjective, so it has to be more than he has a known past and is black. 

My guess is the above + he was a figurehead OC that has never really run a squad. To be fair, D!ck LeBeau coached for nearly 30 years before a quick stint in Cincy and never sniffed another HC gig despite being one of the most respected and successful minds in the league. Bienemy has no personal track record of success on his own and his run on the Chiefs staff was greatly helped by their on field personnel. Coupled with him not being owed a HC gig.....other than being a name attached to a successful offense as a glorified intern, I don't see why Bienemy is anyone's case study these days. 

2. Yes, but that's incredibly fluid. As @drfrey13 said- and I think his main point was- that will almost assuredly change over the coming years as more minority coaches are hired as coordinators and move onto greater things. There are only 3 right now, but we've seen more. 

3. I agree with @drfrey13 in that the default answer to why there aren't more black HCs is simply "they're black" is overblown. I can name a lot more than 3  coordinators that deserve HC gigs. Hell, I actively wanted Byron Leftwich. Still do. 

But representation isn't just a matter of hiring people. There are a lot of Pacific Islander players in the league too. Can anyone name a single HC, OC, or DC of Pacific Islander descent? It's also important to note that of the 32 NFL HCs, we're not dealing with a monolith. It's decidedly not a matter of 3 black HCs and 29 crusty old white dudes. Robert Saleh, Mike McDaniel, Ron Rivera, they're not "white". Not saying it's an equitable distribution based on the makeup of the league, just highlighting the importance of context and expectations. 

Again, I think we'll see more as time goes on. This latest cycle and the last few just haven't yielded much. A lot of guys haven't retired and spots just weren't open. Like @drfrey13is saying- I think it's more of a logjam than some concerted effort to avoid minority coaches. A lot of assistant coaches and very few HC openings this past cycle, and that happens quite a bit. 

There is a lack of equitable diversity among HCs, but consider this:

Bill, Carroll, Tomlin, Reid, Harbaugh, Rivera. That's roughly 1/5 of the league. All very successful. And all have been a HC of no more than 2 teams for the better part of the last 15+ years. 

1/5 of the league's HCs are considered relatively safe and tenured. 

Then you have several newcomers that have done well enough to be pretty safe- Mike McDaniel, McVay, Saleh, McDermott, Vrabel, etc. These are the jobs that typically remain filled for somewhere around 5-8+ years depending on how things go. By sheer volume, you're probably talking about another 2-3/5 of the HC gigs. 

I find it somewhat disingenuous when people cite the number of total HC jobs in the league compared to minority HCs because it sort of handwaves away that a lot of the positions are simply full for long stretches. We don't have a HC draft. Turnover just isn't that high. 

Of actually available jobs at most given times, there's really not nearly the same statistical discrepancy. 

Example: 

In 2023, 5 HC roles changed. They remained the same ethnicity- 4 white guys and 1 black guy. Ergo, 20% of hires this year were of minority HCs.

That paints a decidedly different picture: 1/5 of available openings chose a black candidate, as opposed to 1/11th of the league having black HCs. 

Is 1/5th a suitable ratio? Probably not. It's not particularly representative. But it's also not as egregious or nefarious as saying 3 of 32 as if all positions were annually available in the first place- especially considering that roughly 20% of the league's total coaching pool have been locked into a spot or 2 for the better part of 2 decades. 

It's just a much more nuanced issue overall than many people care to admit, and I don't think a lot of the arguments do it proper justice. 

 

In response to the pacific islander or woman argument, the league isn't majority Women or majority Pacific Islander. It's majority black. So they're just somehow only be three black head coaches is saying something and all three of them are under special circumstances. One of them has never had a record be low .500. That's not like some thing that can just be hand waved off.

Think about this a few years ago, Brian Flores gets fired after going 9–7. Is that in the interview process there were a few teams that didn't even bring the actual general manager and one of the times the person that did interview him was drunk.

Hue Jackson mentioned that during his time with the Browns, they were actually paying him to lose. 
 

Think about this, Steve Wilks was the Cardinals head coach for one year and was fired. then he almost takes a Panthers game to the playoffs(yes, I know of the division was dumpster fire, but that's not the point) only to have his job taken by a retrad(on a sidenote, that's the same reason why I wasn't a fan of moving on from Rich who was also in the same situation). 
 

These examples point to a greater reality that black head coaches aren't given the same opportunities. And the times that they do their own an extremely short leash. 
 

As for Eric Bieniemy, I guarantee you Matt Nagy(who should've never got a head coaching job in the first place) gets a second chance as a head coach before Eric Bieniemy gets a first chance.

[Jeremy408]

19 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

🎯Agreed. Well said. You have to be living under a rock not to see minority coaches don’t get the same opportunities.

The fact the NFL had to institute a rule to force NFL teams to interview minority candidates and a draft compensation reward for teams who had minority asst hired for HC or management positions proves there had been a huge discrepancy for decades. 
 

Robert Salah, Mike McDaniel and Ron Rivera are the only other minority HC coaches in the NFL

I was going to mention this specifically in the post I just made, but I thought this went without saying.

Robert Salah, Mike, me Daniel and Rivera are like the safe minority hires though.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Jeremy408

[jimkelly02]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:15 AM, big_palooka said:

lol. There is a reason this guy hasn't gotten a HC job. Half the league has interviewed him and passed over the last 5 cycles. He's never been considered amongst the finalist for a job.

Your absolutely right!  This guys got some skeletons in his closet apparently (I didn’t make that rumor up, it’s been out there) and got a lot of credit from being under Andy Reid even though he worked with reduced responsibilities for an OC.  I’d MUCH rather keep JMD then have Bienemy.