2024 NFL Draft Discussion

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

58 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

AT no point did I say he was Davante. You are jumping into a much longer conversation at the end and drawing a false conclusion. 

Not really, I have been watching the whole time.  I sarcastically threw that out there- a mistake on my part and I apologize for that.  I just really disagree with comparing of Doubs with Adams first two years.  I don't think it is a comparison that is easy to make.

To start, Vegas is correct in that for Adams first year, he was with Nelson and Cobb, who both had outstanding years.  Jordy Nelson had 157 targets, Cobb 127 targets.  Together they combined for over 2800 yds.  By contrast, in Doubs first year he was the second most targeted wide receiver behind Lazard. Lazard had 100 and 788 yds, Doubs with 67 targets.   

One could argue that in 2022, the running back position was targeted more than in 2014 at 115 between Jones and Dillon, vs 84 between Lacy and Starks, I get that.  It's not a huge difference though.

We all know that Rodgers doesn't trust rookies and it takes time to earn his trust so each would have been limited by this.  The point is though, at the wide receiver position, Rodgers had perhaps his two favorite players of all time available for all 16 games in front of Adams, while at wide receiver in 2022 he had Lazard, a washed up Sammy Watkins, an aging  Cobb, and a bunch of developmental players.  None of the wide receivers played all of the games in 2022, and there was also an extra game relative to 2014. They just aren't situations that can be compared.

Another big issue is that while you are correct that Nelson was out in 2015, Adams injured his ankle against the Seahawks in week 2, came back too early and ended up with a persistant problem for the rest of the season.  Doubs has been less limited this year than Adams in 2014.  Again, not a reasonable head to head comparison.

All this says to me that it doesn't ring true to say that he is "ahead of Adams" at this point. Doubs is doing well as a second year player. I think if he stays healthy he will have a good career in the NFL.   I just think he needs to be evaluated based on his play, and not by comparing numbers out of context.

[MantyWrestler]

4 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Just restating the obvious.  Doubs has no one in front of him.  'Vante had two excellent starters in front of him.

People talk about drops.  I don't remember many "bad" drops from 'Vante.  I do remember him not completing back shoulder catches that were not easy.  Rodgers threw him a ton of those.  He always showed the jumping ability, but rarely did he complete the catch.

Doubs, in my view, looks very good.  And I think he's limited by a hammy right now.  He's made two of those back shoulder catches for TD's where he's looked very, very good.

If Doubs can get to 997 yards receiving in his third year, I'll be very, very happy.

He's on pace for 731 this year.

I think having Jordy, Jones and  Cobb in front of him is irrelevant. Adams didn't look good anyway. Drops, not getting open etc. Now, there was certainly a reason for that and that's why the Packers stayed the course but the results on the field are pretty indisputable.

 

EDIT: Doubs is also our #1 and getting the attention that comes with that.

Although, it's only 3 games in of course.

Edited September 26, 2023 by MantyWrestler

[Old Guy]

21 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Not really, I have been watching the whole time.  I sarcastically threw that out there- a mistake on my part and I apologize for that.  I just really disagree with comparing of Doubs with Adams first two years.  I don't think it is a comparison that is easy to make.

To start, Vegas is correct in that for Adams first year, he was with Nelson and Cobb, who both had outstanding years.  Jordy Nelson had 157 targets, Cobb 127 targets.  Together they combined for over 2800 yds.  By contrast, in Doubs first year he was the second most targeted wide receiver behind Lazard. Lazard had 100 and 788 yds, Doubs with 67 targets.   

One could argue that in 2022, the running back position was targeted more than in 2014 at 115 between Jones and Dillon, vs 84 between Lacy and Starks, I get that.  It's not a huge difference though.

We all know that Rodgers doesn't trust rookies and it takes time to earn his trust so each would have been limited by this.  The point is though, at the wide receiver position, Rodgers had perhaps his two favorite players of all time available for all 16 games in front of Adams, while at wide receiver in 2022 he had Lazard, a washed up Sammy Watkins, an aging  Cobb, and a bunch of developmental players.  None of the wide receivers played all of the games in 2022, and there was also an extra game relative to 2014. They just aren't situations that can be compared.

Another big issue is that while you are correct that Nelson was out in 2015, Adams injured his ankle against the Seahawks in week 2, came back too early and ended up with a persistant problem for the rest of the season.  Doubs has been less limited this year than Adams in 2014.  Again, not a reasonable head to head comparison.

All this says to me that it doesn't ring true to say that he is "ahead of Adams" at this point. Doubs is doing well as a second year player. I think if he stays healthy he will have a good career in the NFL.   I just think he needs to be evaluated based on his play, and not by comparing numbers out of context.

Adams had as many targets as Doubs did his first year, so your whole argument is out the window. Given your claims of Cobb and Nelson ahead of him that would mean he had defense rotating towards those two guys giving him less attention. 

So, IF you look at the numbers Doubs is looking like Adams, from a production standpoint into his second year. I really don't care what mental gymnastics you are going to use to dispute it, the numbers don't lie. 

Doubs played 13 games his rookie year, Adams played 16. Doubs has 6 TD catches though 16 games in years 1 & 2. Adams had a total of 4 in 29 games in years 1 & 2. 

Just stop already. You are the one comparing numbers out of context here. 

[beekay414]

First Round - Jer'Zhan Newton | IDL | Illinois
Second Round (Jets) - Andrew Mukuba | DB | Clemson
Second Round - Keon Coleman | WR | Florida State
Third Round - Donovan Edwards | RB | Michigan
Fourth Round - Connor Colby | OT | Iowa or another OT

Edited September 28, 2023 by beekay414

[Packerraymond]

2 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

First Round - Jer'Zhan Newton | IDL | Illinois
Second Round (Jets) - Andrew Mukuba | DB | Clemson
Second Round - Graham Barton | OT | Duke
Third Round - Donovan Edwards | RB | Michigan

Hard to complain at all. If Barton is any sort of athlete he'll go round 1.

[beekay414]

1 minute ago, Packerraymond said:

Hard to complain at all. If Barton is any sort of athlete he'll go round 1.

Yeah I made a change after that since I figured Barton probably isn't there. Figured we'd just work our 4th round magic at OT and made that pick Keon Coleman.

[VonKarman]

Isn't Coleman battling for that #2 WR spot in the draft?

[turf toe]

On 9/26/2023 at 5:12 PM, Old Guy said:

Adams had as many targets as Doubs did his first year, so your whole argument is out the window. Given your claims of Cobb and Nelson ahead of him that would mean he had defense rotating towards those two guys giving him less attention. 

So, IF you look at the numbers Doubs is looking like Adams, from a production standpoint into his second year. I really don't care what mental gymnastics you are going to use to dispute it, the numbers don't lie. 

Doubs played 13 games his rookie year, Adams played 16. Doubs has 6 TD catches though 16 games in years 1 & 2. Adams had a total of 4 in 29 games in years 1 & 2. 

Just stop already. You are the one comparing numbers out of context here. 

so then your saying that Doubs will become Adams because you saw a comparable stat line, Manty Wrestler nailed it, take away either of Cobb or Nelson in Adams rookie year and he would have a 100 plus receptions, Adams talent was so obvious to anyone with the eye to see it right from the start, crisp run routes, great setting and out of his breaks, and pretty good hands his rookie season, Doubs dropped 50% thrown his way

the foot injury led to most of Tae's issues his 2nd season, he said he lost some confidence because he couldn't run his routes consistently, and being out of position made catching the ball more difficult and where a big reason that he dropped more passes.

sorry if I read you wrong, but to me Doubs hasn't impressed me as much as Adams did that rookie season.

[beekay414]

1 minute ago, VonKarman said:

Isn't Coleman battling for that #2 WR spot in the draft?

There's several. It's basically just an *insert WR here* spot for now. Everything is early and there's a shot, per usual, that every single player on that list goes a round higher (or lower in Newton's case). Mukuba could be DB1 in the end and a mid-1st. It's more about the positions than the players.

[Old Guy]

10 minutes ago, turf toe said:

so then your saying that Doubs will become Adams because you saw a comparable stat line, Manty Wrestler nailed it, take away either of Cobb or Nelson in Adams rookie year and he would have a 100 plus receptions, Adams talent was so obvious to anyone with the eye to see it right from the start, crisp run routes, great setting and out of his breaks, and pretty good hands his rookie season, Doubs dropped 50% thrown his way

the foot injury led to most of Tae's issues his 2nd season, he said he lost some confidence because he couldn't run his routes consistently, and being out of position made catching the ball more difficult and where a big reason that he dropped more passes.

sorry if I read you wrong, but to me Doubs hasn't impressed me as much as Adams did that rookie season.

No, I did not say he was better than Adams. This has been discussed to death. Doubs is a 4th round steal. 

[Mdpackfan22]

Need IOL in 1st or 2nd round. Damn the premium position philosophy, we need to draft OL that can actually run block. 

[MacReady]

How is Cooper DeJean looking so far this year?

What other defensive backs are going to be in our range (not necessarily first round, but about 16-20 in the rotation)?

We’re gonna have to take running backs the way we took DL this year. Lots of flyers in the mid rounds (4-6).

 

[Mazrimiv]

Between tonight's game and the Bak news, OL is officially the top priority for the 2024 draft.  Multiple upgrades are needed.

[squire12]

7 minutes ago, Mazrimiv said:

Between tonight's game and the Bak news, OL is officially the top priority for the 2024 draft.  Multiple upgrades are needed.

Walker and Newman were awful.  Meyers was not great.  Runyan and Tom were better, but that is low bar statement

[Old Guy]

We need to draft a couple of offensive linemen, priority #1. We also need to bring in a couple of vets via free agency as solid backups in case of emergency. Allowing Royce Newman to start a game is roster malpractice. 

We need a new center, RT (assuming we swap Tom to LT), a new center and RG. There is still some hope that Walker and Rhyan could develop into solid, unspectacular players. 

Our offensive line has turned into the biggest weakness on our team, other than our defensive coordinator.