Week 2: VIKINGS (0-1) at Eagles (1-0)

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, Nzd07 said:

The '22 draft was bad, but we already knew that. The '23 draft looks good thus far. Addison and Ivan Pace are already playing significant snaps and grading out well. That's why I made my post when I did, because it was a strange time to start bashing the GM when two rookies were two of our best players on the field in week 2. I'm hoping the '22 draft was a fluke, every GM has them. You don't have to go back far in the GB draft history (2021?) to see a flop from your own team's regime.

I mean, it's kinda disingenuous to include Ivan Pace as part of the draft class when he wasn't drafted.  I was talking about their draft class as a whole.

[Nzd07]

13 hours ago, marshpit23 said:

Since 1970, only 9.5% of NFL teams have made the playoffs after starting the season 0-2. 
https://sports.yahoo.com/ranking-the-0-2-nfl-teams-by-their-chances-of-still-making-the-playoffs-172741014.html

your point is still valid, though. We have a tough hill to climb, with a tough schedule ahead. 

Given that there's now 18 games and 3 Wild Card teams, our chances probably move up to ~15% in a vacuum.

As someone else said though, it just sucks that we have to play "Must-Win" football in September.

[JDBrocks]

4 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, it's kinda disingenuous to include Ivan Pace as part of the draft class when he wasn't drafted.  I was talking about their draft class as a whole.

It would be disingenuous to NOT include rookie udfas when discussing quality of a draft class. That’s when GMs have an opportunity to acquire those players.

[Ozzy]

9 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, it's kinda disingenuous to include Ivan Pace as part of the draft class when he wasn't drafted.  I was talking about their draft class as a whole.

What?  Disingenuous?  

 

UDFA players should absolutely be included in the draft class, they are in that group of prospects all coming into the NFL.  If the kid can play what does it matter if he was drafted or not?  Absurd to not consider UDFA's in the draft class because they are absolutely part of the draft class!

 

Early on one could argue Ivan Pace Jr so far is right with Jack Campbell as the best ILB in the 2023 draft.  Dude has played very solid football the first two games.  Should the Vikings have selected him in the 4th, 5th or even 7th round?  Yeah!  I had him ended up as a 3rd rounder but early on I had him as a late 1st round pick.  Either way they still got him and he is on the roster, that counts.  

[skywindO2]

This loss was deserved after the tragedy in Minneapolis on Thursday.

We need to atone for our sins. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by skywindO2

[CWood21]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

UDFA players should absolutely be included in the draft class, they are in that group of prospects all coming into the NFL.  If the kid can play what does it matter if he was drafted or not?  Absurd to not consider UDFA's in the draft class because they are absolutely part of the draft class!

I'm going to lump the response to you and @JDBrocks in the same response.

UDFA largely comes down to whoever is offering a bigger signing bonus and/or better opportunity.  If you throw a 200k bonus at an UDFA player, and another team throws a 300k bonus at them they're likely going to sign at a 300k opportunity.  You also have a finite number of draft picks available, and if you're not willing to invest into that player you're clearly not that high on that player.  When we talk about draft classes, we're talking about the picks invested into those players.  LIS, it's still very early to know about this draft class but I wasn't a huge fan of the class.  Addison is a solid starter, but I don't think he's more than a Keenan Allen-level of WR.  And that's not a knock by any means, Keenan Allen had a very good NFL career.  Blackmon probably has the upside, but he was pretty meh in college.  Ward was awful in college, and I don't really have any high hopes for him.

Just from a roster-building standpoint, it's hard to really like what Kwesi is doing.  It looks like a team that sees their window closing, and trying to flood the room with offensive weapons before their QB is gone.  I don't trust the Vikings' IOL to keep Kirk Cousins upright.  And their RB room looks awful even before the dud that was the Eagles' game.  Defensively, outside of Danielle Hunter this looks like one of the worst defensive units that the Vikings have fielded in a LONG time.

[Ozzy]

41 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I'm going to lump the response to you and @JDBrocks in the same response.

UDFA largely comes down to whoever is offering a bigger signing bonus and/or better opportunity.  If you throw a 200k bonus at an UDFA player, and another team throws a 300k bonus at them they're likely going to sign at a 300k opportunity.  You also have a finite number of draft picks available, and if you're not willing to invest into that player you're clearly not that high on that player.  When we talk about draft classes, we're talking about the picks invested into those players.  LIS, it's still very early to know about this draft class but I wasn't a huge fan of the class.  Addison is a solid starter, but I don't think he's more than a Keenan Allen-level of WR.  And that's not a knock by any means, Keenan Allen had a very good NFL career.  Blackmon probably has the upside, but he was pretty meh in college.  Ward was awful in college, and I don't really have any high hopes for him.

Just from a roster-building standpoint, it's hard to really like what Kwesi is doing.  It looks like a team that sees their window closing, and trying to flood the room with offensive weapons before their QB is gone.  I don't trust the Vikings' IOL to keep Kirk Cousins upright.  And their RB room looks awful even before the dud that was the Eagles' game.  Defensively, outside of Danielle Hunter this looks like one of the worst defensive units that the Vikings have fielded in a LONG time.

This is not a discussion on how the Vikings are doing in terms getting prospects or how Kwesi is doing as a GM.  It is a discussion on do UDFA count as players in the draft class they were selected in?  The answer is clearly YES.

 

Sure sometimes numbers play into it and what teams can offer but still the team has to identify the talent and sign them and they hit a home run with Ivan Pace Jr possibly.  I said it during the draft, their UDFA signings especially Pace Jr and Carter II are both going to greatly help their draft class overall.

 

I agree Jay Ward is not great, and they have made other mistakes in the draft but Pace Jr is not a mistake and was a great pickup for that draft class.  

 

As for the overall defensive unit, clearly you are not watching the games because they are far more multiple as a defense in their new system, still work in progress but under Flores leadership they will continue to get better and better.  Still need DBs especially CBs but Flores being brought in will help greatly.  Being ran up and down the field does not help but they have shown flashes at times....Lewis Cine not even getting playing time is still a massive concern and Davenport as a free agent has not seen the field so that is an issue and Booth looks like he is a total bust as a draft pick so year they have personnel problems going no question.  I have faith in Flores and his ability to coach and I see them making improvement as the year goes on.

[JDBrocks]

56 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I'm going to lump the response to you and @JDBrocks in the same response.

UDFA largely comes down to whoever is offering a bigger signing bonus and/or better opportunity.  If you throw a 200k bonus at an UDFA player, and another team throws a 300k bonus at them they're likely going to sign at a 300k opportunity.  You also have a finite number of draft picks available, and if you're not willing to invest into that player you're clearly not that high on that player.  When we talk about draft classes, we're talking about the picks invested into those players.  LIS, it's still very early to know about this draft class but I wasn't a huge fan of the class.  Addison is a solid starter, but I don't think he's more than a Keenan Allen-level of WR.  And that's not a knock by any means, Keenan Allen had a very good NFL career.  Blackmon probably has the upside, but he was pretty meh in college.  Ward was awful in college, and I don't really have any high hopes for him.

Just from a roster-building standpoint, it's hard to really like what Kwesi is doing.  It looks like a team that sees their window closing, and trying to flood the room with offensive weapons before their QB is gone.  I don't trust the Vikings' IOL to keep Kirk Cousins upright.  And their RB room looks awful even before the dud that was the Eagles' game.  Defensively, outside of Danielle Hunter this looks like one of the worst defensive units that the Vikings have fielded in a LONG time.

This defense is better than last year’s by any conceivable metric, so your last sentence is demonstrably false.

you also clearly haven’t been following the “roster building” that you’re commenting on. The whole idea was to stay competitive in the short term while Kirk is still here while shedding cap and veteran contracts in preparation for the next 2-4 years.

Excluding UDFAs from a draft class is silly - how else do those players make a roster after entering the draft? Discrediting a GM for not drafting a player but ending up with that talent on the roster makes no sense unless you are looking for reasons to discredit a GM.

The offense has two starters over 30 (Ham and Cousins), and they are flush with cash for the foreseeable future, even with a JJ extension and a new deal for Hunter.

[CriminalMind]

The problem i have with the 2022 draft class, if everyone knew it was garbage as soon as it was done. And that is based on 85% grade for the top 3 picks. 
 

so that is just stupid for a GM being paid millions

[JDBrocks]

2 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

The problem i have with the 2022 draft class, if everyone knew it was garbage as soon as it was done. And that is based on 85% grade for the top 3 picks. 
 

so that is just stupid for a GM being paid millions

Dude, every GM is paid millions. Why do you keep bringing up salaries? Pocket watching adds nothing to the conversation.

[CriminalMind]

3 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

Dude, every GM is paid millions. Why do you keep bringing up salaries? Pocket watching adds nothing to the conversation.

Every GM shouldn’t be a GM. 

[JDBrocks]

1 minute ago, CriminalMind said:

Every GM shouldn’t be a GM. 

Sure. Every football player shouldn’t be a football player. What is your point?

[CWood21]

7 hours ago, Ozzy said:

This is not a discussion on how the Vikings are doing in terms getting prospects or how Kwesi is doing as a GM.  It is a discussion on do UDFA count as players in the draft class they were selected in?  The answer is clearly YES.

The answer isn't clearly yes.  We're talking about DRAFT classes.  If a GM misses on every single one of their picks, but they find 3-4 starters in UDFA does that make him a good drafter?  Absolutely not.

 

7 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Sure sometimes numbers play into it and what teams can offer but still the team has to identify the talent and sign them and they hit a home run with Ivan Pace Jr possibly.  I said it during the draft, their UDFA signings especially Pace Jr and Carter II are both going to greatly help their draft class overall.

Signing of Pace and Carter doesn't make up for the black eye IF the rest of the Vikings' draft class is mediocre.

7 hours ago, Ozzy said:

As for the overall defensive unit, clearly you are not watching the games because they are far more multiple as a defense in their new system, still work in progress but under Flores leadership they will continue to get better and better.  Still need DBs especially CBs but Flores being brought in will help greatly.  Being ran up and down the field does not help but they have shown flashes at times....Lewis Cine not even getting playing time is still a massive concern and Davenport as a free agent has not seen the field so that is an issue and Booth looks like he is a total bust as a draft pick so year they have personnel problems going no question.  I have faith in Flores and his ability to coach and I see them making improvement as the year goes on.

Obviously with the HUGE caveat of SSS concerns, I'm not sure what you're basing that off given that they've given up 27 PPG over their first 2 games (8th worst in the NFL).  That would have been the 31st worst defense last year if the Vikings sustain that.  I get it, you've got this former HC as your DC and optimism runs high, but the lack of impact from former high draft prospects has to be alarming.  Andrew Booth and Lewis Cine haven't played a SINGLE defensive snap in the first 2 games of the year.  That's alarming.  Akayleb Evans has been forced into duty, and he's been okay but nothing special.  I'm assuming Blackmon is your dime back, because he's had limited snaps in both games.  Brian Asamoah was a former 3rd round pick is getting limited non-ST snaps.  Chazz Surratt isn't even on the Vikings roster from the 2021 draft.  It's not a knock on the Vikings' team or coaching staff.  They just haven't drafted well defensively, and they've invested a TON into the offensive side of the ball.

[CWood21]

7 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

This defense is better than last year’s by any conceivable metric, so your last sentence is demonstrably false.

you also clearly haven’t been following the “roster building” that you’re commenting on. The whole idea was to stay competitive in the short term while Kirk is still here while shedding cap and veteran contracts in preparation for the next 2-4 years.

Excluding UDFAs from a draft class is silly - how else do those players make a roster after entering the draft? Discrediting a GM for not drafting a player but ending up with that talent on the roster makes no sense unless you are looking for reasons to discredit a GM.

The offense has two starters over 30 (Ham and Cousins), and they are flush with cash for the foreseeable future, even with a JJ extension and a new deal for Hunter.

Again, putting aside the HUGE SSS caveat what metrics are you looking at?  They're giving up on average 27 PPG over their first 2 games.  That would be the 31st worst in the NFL in 2022 behind only the Chicago Bears.

And it's not trying to discredit a GM.  The farther you get down in the draft, your success rate goes down tremendously and you're relying more on "luck" going in your favor.  If you pass on a player 6 different times, you're clearly not that big of a believer in that player.  If you want me to praise them for flexing their financial muscle, sure the Vikings did a good job buying Andre Carter and to a lesser extent Pace.  According to Nick Korte, the Vikings handed Andre Carter the highest guaranteed bonus by 90k.  I could be wrong, but on that same tweet he mentioned that the Chiefs and Giants had tied for the 5th highest guaranteed to an UDFA I believe it would have been the Vikings and Giants.  Not the Chiefs and Vikings.  That's 5 of the 6 highest guaranteed money handed out in last year's UDFA period.  That's flexing financial muscle.

[JDBrocks]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Again, putting aside the HUGE SSS caveat what metrics are you looking at?  They're giving up on average 27 PPG over their first 2 games.  That would be the 31st worst in the NFL in 2022 behind only the Chicago Bears.

And it's not trying to discredit a GM.  The farther you get down in the draft, your success rate goes down tremendously and you're relying more on "luck" going in your favor.  If you pass on a player 6 different times, you're clearly not that big of a believer in that player.  If you want me to praise them for flexing their financial muscle, sure the Vikings did a good job buying Andre Carter and to a lesser extent Pace.  According to Nick Korte, the Vikings handed Andre Carter the highest guaranteed bonus by 90k.  I could be wrong, but on that same tweet he mentioned that the Chiefs and Giants had tied for the 5th highest guaranteed to an UDFA I believe it would have been the Vikings and Giants.  Not the Chiefs and Vikings.  That's 5 of the 6 highest guaranteed money handed out in last year's UDFA period.  That's flexing financial muscle.

Watch the game if you want to talk about the team. You’re out of your depth here using PPG without the context of turnovers, etc. The defense is MARKEDLY better. 11th in defensive DVOA so far this year.

GMs get credit for finding and winning UDFAs. You are specifically trying to discredit KAM by taking the absolute most cynical angle you can about the moves.

UDFAs count in a draft class. GMs get credit for recognizing the talent AND convincing them to sign.