John Dorsey named GM

[Iamcanadian]

20 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

I'm realizing that this whole fight is about expectations.

If you went in sold on "tank for finally being good in 2018/19", then you're fine.

If you (for whatever reason) expected to be good in 2017, you're pissed at Sashi and glad he's gone.

Because those of us who got the tanking strategy and got ready for it tend to be REALLY excited about the future of the team and to see a ton of good stuff. Like what looks like it will be a top 5 DL within a couple years, three stud LBs, a top 5 OL, and a potential star at TE. We get that a lot of picks flame out and think that it looking like we hit big on two of our three firsts last year is awesome.

Those who went in expecting to win are pissed that we didn't resign Josh McCown (seriously who is this vet QB we could've gotten? Cause I remember wanting one too and then I remember there being nobody available.) Hate our WR group. And think we have no talent (generalization, but that's the tone).

It's all about what you expected going in.

That is simply not correct, my problem with Sashi is missed opportunities in Wentz especially and also Watson. Solid GM's can spot talent and drafting a franchise QB is the #1 priority for any football team and any GM, Sashi failed terribly in that area. Wins would have been nice, even improvement in season 2 might have been nice, but failure to recognize a franchise QB, that cannot be forgiven, especially when you waste a 2nd round pick on a bum, IMO.

I do not have a problem with tanking the season, again, my problem lay in his inability to spot talent. Face it, any GM is going to have great difficulty getting the job done with a boss like Haslam, who gave way too much power to Hue or so it seems. You do not expect an inexperienced HC to have much of a say on draft day, that's the GM's job and you expect your GM to be able to hire the HC of his choice not the owner's choice. Dorsey is also stuck with this organizational disaster and I doubt he can function with confidence in this atmosphere and it's bound to affect his judgement on talent as well. 

When you absolutely know that you work for an owner with a very quick trigger finger and he sticks you with a HC you may not want, well IMO it is just another disaster waiting to happen. Who can draft properly with that dagger hanging over their head, nobody.

I will also add, that in my opinion, you can only count on analytics for around 15 to 20% to find real talent, the other 80 to 85% has to be the tangible ability to spot talent after watching prospects perform and workout. Just because a movie made it look like Oakland used analytics 100% to decide on talent does not make it a true story, it is just a movie for heaven's sake and movies exaggerate all the time to make a good story, they do not care about the truth, only what will sell tickets.

Dorsey said, he used analytics about 15% of the time a relied on the eyeball test for 85% of his decisions, so I suspect this is the norm in pro sports that use analytics and I am sure that a lot of GM's have always used analytics in the past, just did not have a name for it. Sashi simply showed that he could not judge talent consistently enough to get the job done and IMO, he will never get a second chance to prove he can!!!

[Iamcanadian]

14 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

To be fair, I had Sashi on a pedestal from the beginning, still do.  I'm all in on the philosophy he was trying to implement.

Dorsey had nothing to do with a lot of the really talented guys on those Cheifs teams over the last 4 years.  Berry, Poe, Bailey, Hudson, Houston, Hali, Charles, Carr, etc were all drafted by his predecessors. He drafted Kelce, Hunt and Hill as his key finds, and Hill is a pile of human sht, so no kudos there.

Dorsey is responsible for the roster as you see it in KC today, which is old, expensive, has poor cap flexibility and has a .500 record. It's almost as if the team has started to decline as the guys who are stars that he didn't draft are now on the wrong side of 30 or gone. Look at the last 4 drafts they've had and tell me you see a wizard at identifying talent.

This certainly worries me as well, IMO, Andy Reid had a huge say on draft day and a lot of their great picks have his name on them not Dorsey's. Dorsey is what, 26 years old and claims to be a draft genuis and it is just like Haslam to believe it and not worry that he got fired in KC and may not be the great drafter he is made out to be. Haslam has never shown the least bit of ability to spot GM talent, so will Dorsey prove to be the answer, who knows???

What do we really have, an organization where the HC was hired by the owner and obviously, has his confidence vs a new GM who cannot hire the HC of his choice and has to know, he likely has 2 years to turn things around or he will be fired and the first year of his reign, he is stuck with a HC he may really want to fire. Ugh, what a mess. Can any GM rebuild this team under these conditions, I just do not think so!!!

[OhioG]

People need to acting like Wentz and Watson were surefire things.

Most of the people on the board did not want Watson at 12. I liked Watson and even I thought he was a mid-low first rounder

And Wentz was a risky proposition. Goff was the one we all were sure would be pro bowler but Wentz was a risky pick

[Thomas5737]

4 minutes ago, ohiogenius said:

People need to acting like Wentz and Watson were surefire things.

Most of the people on the board did not want Watson at 12. I liked Watson and even I thought he was a mid-low first rounder

And Wentz was a risky proposition. Goff was the one we all were sure would be pro bowler but Wentz was a risky pick

I wasn't a huge fan of Goff or Wentz that high. Goff I thought would probably end up average or above average but would mostly be a game manager. Wentz I had no idea how he would transition in the NFL so that would have been a big gamble at the top of round 1.

[Kiwibrown]

21 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

I wasn't a huge fan of Goff or Wentz that high. Goff I thought would probably end up average or above average but would mostly be a game manager. Wentz I had no idea how he would transition in the NFL so that would have been a big gamble at the top of round 1.

From a data perspective Wentz didn't project well, he hadn't played at a high level of college football. His numbers were good not great. He had been injured a fair bit. He was a tools guy, big fast accurate with a strong arm and he had good charecter to boot. 

If had played at Ohio State i am sure we take him. 

[Browns1987]

3 hours ago, ohiogenius said:

People need to acting like Wentz and Watson were surefire things.

Most of the people on the board did not want Watson at 12. I liked Watson and even I thought he was a mid-low first rounder

And Wentz was a risky proposition. Goff was the one we all were sure would be pro bowler but Wentz was a risky pick

And people need to stop acting like Watson is a surefire thing.

How many games has he played? How many has he missed already? He blew a knee in the past and now blew the other one, lets see how he comes back from it.

I still would not have drafted him at #12.

[candyman93]

3 hours ago, Browns1987 said:

And people need to stop acting like Watson is a surefire thing.

How many games has he played? How many has he missed already? He blew a knee in the past and now blew the other one, lets see how he comes back from it.

I still would not have drafted him at #12.

Absolutely agree with you. I still don’t think his frame will hold up and I compared him to RG3 because of it.

[Rod Johnson]

4 hours ago, Browns1987 said:

And people need to stop acting like Watson is a surefire thing.

How many games has he played? How many has he missed already? He blew a knee in the past and now blew the other one, lets see how he comes back from it.

I still would not have drafted him at #12.

Valid point.  I actually didn't mind waiting to draft Kizer as the draft played out but I think we needed a veteran in there either way.  Maybe Sashi thought he could 2for1 that in the Brock trade.

[big poppa pump]

9 hours ago, ohiogenius said:

People need to acting like Wentz and Watson were surefire things.

Most of the people on the board did not want Watson at 12. I liked Watson and even I thought he was a mid-low first rounder

And Wentz was a risky proposition. Goff was the one we all were sure would be pro bowler but Wentz was a risky pick

Who is a sure fire thing?  Drafting is a risky process, especially at the QB position.  There were regular Joes who hated both Wentz and Watson as prospects.  There were some that loved both.  There were GM's that didn't have them rated highly, and there were GM's that did. Why is wrong to want to have the GM's that did?  Neither one of them are finished products, and either could flame out.  I get that Watson has done it for such a short period of time, coupled with the fact that he will be coming off a major injury, so he very well could regress.

People keep talking about the plan that Sashi had.  He owned the 2nd pick overall, and the next year the first and 12th.  None of those picks were used on a QB.  In a QB driven league, where you are drafting that high (not 12) you should be able to take a swing at a franchise QB.  Even though the plan may have been to take a QB in year 3 of the rebuild (this upcoming draft) Sashi would have no way of knowing that we would be THIS BAD and actually have a chance at getting a top 3 pick.  You have to be drafting in the top 3 to guarantee one of the QB prospects coming out. I don't want to hear about how we had the assets to move up, in case we were picking outside the top 3.  There is NO GUARANTEE that a team sitting there would have been willing to trade with us.  In fact, those teams typically NEED a franchise QB themselves.

It is pure luck that we have made absolutely zero progress in terms of wins and losses, in year 3 of the rebuild.  With some horrible coaching, and some overrated talent from the previous two drafts, and FA, we are being gifted a top 3 pick, that can actually turn our franchise around....if it's the right QB.

I, for one, am glad it won't be Sashi making that pick.  I understand how many believe that through all his trade downs, and accumulation of picks, that he should have had that right.  I do not. 

That said...I hope Haslam grows a pair, and fires Hue, and allows Dorsey to hand pick his HC.  That's the way it should be.

[DaWg_LB.]

On 12/9/2017 at 4:56 PM, Kathouse Sticks said:

You mentioned earlier how you look forward to all of his trade downs. Can I ask, at some point we need NFL caliber talent.  With all of these trade downs, when exactly was Sashi going to pick some?  With his third fourth round pick, after his sixth trade down from the 8th spot, acquired from Houston, as part of the deal for Manhattan for some Dutch beads and Brock Osweiler?  NOW that’s analytics for you. So was Kenny Britt. And the decision to trade with Houston instead of picking Hooker.  And to let Pryor walk. And Schwartz walk....

I just want to deal with a few of these points.....the whole post would take me too much time.

People can say all they want about Sashi....he did the dirty work and took the bullets we all been talking about for years.....IMO he made solid moves.....his moves down allowed us to make moves corresponding moves like Acquiring Jamie Collins for a 3rd round pick....or trading down in the 7th to acquire Jamar Taylor......but folks want to forget about that.

Peppers has potential to be an all pro SS....he's being asked to play a deep "Angel" position as a FS.....and that's because he's the best thing on the roster we have at doing it right now....he's being missused, but that's because we dont have much else back there.......folks also keep forgetting for all the plays he's not making...he's a rookie starting FS, after never having played it before, for a TOP 10 D that has managed to have an 0-12 record......sometimes you have to look at overall impact vs individual stats to assess true contribution....

The Brock Osweiler deal was a stroke of genius for me....he worked hard to get the Browns in GOOD cap space.....why NOT convert some of our Cap Space, for one year, into a TOP NOTCH draft asset....NOBODY had done that before.....it took advantage of UNUSED CAP space that was going to be sitting there unused this year anyway.....if your owner green lights it.........smart move.

And your right...he signed Kenny Britt and missed....but he singed 5 Free agents this year...the others were Tevon Coley, McCourty, Tretter and Zeitler.....(hmmmm...thats 4 starters....2 on the oline which may be our most solid offensive unit....and 2 starting defenders on a top 10 defense)

Pryor wanted HUGE money.....or take a 1 year and prove it deal with the best QB available........yes we should be so sad, because he has TORN the league up this year....go over to the redskins forum and ask what they would take in trade for T.P. right now.....I bet you a case of actual T.P. would be suggested as the starting asking price...

With Schwartz he made an above average offer of 8M per season....he and his agent decided that wasnt good enough and went out to find a better deal....the best they could find was KC for 6.6 or 6.8 (cant remember)....he comes back to the Browns and say's hey I'll take the 8.....Sashi told him the deal had been reduced to 6.8......that is how I want a front office to do business.

Just a few counter points to your points.....

[big poppa pump]

No one really wants to answer the question when Sashi Brown was planning on taking a swing at a QB HIGH in the draft?  If you say that in year 1 of his tenure, that he planned on waiting till year 3????  I say that's a flawed, and ridiculous plan. 

[buno67]

17 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

No one really wants to answer the question when Sashi Brown was planning on taking a swing at a QB HIGH in the draft?  If you say that in year 1 of his tenure, that he planned on waiting till year 3????  I say that's a flawed, and ridiculous plan. 

I said that for the longest time that year 3 was going to be the draft to sell out for QB1. They wanted to go with building the roster first. They knew they would ruin a young QB in year one or year two 

[big poppa pump]

3 minutes ago, buno67 said:

I said that for the longest time that year 3 was going to be the draft to sell out for QB1. They wanted to go with building the roster first. They knew they would ruin a young QB in year one or year two 

And in year 1, he knew they would be bad enough to get one of the top QB's in the draft of year 3?  Just because you have assets, doesn't mean you will always have a trading partner.  If you are saying in year 1, he knew they would be picking 1 overall in year 3????  Then he is just as guilty for going Sam HInkie tank......

[bruceb]

11 minutes ago, buno67 said:

I said that for the longest time that year 3 was going to be the draft to sell out for QB1. They wanted to go with building the roster first. They knew they would ruin a young QB in year one or year two 

Not sure they wanted to go with building the roster as much as it made the most sense at the time, especially with the 2018 QB class being so highly touted.

[bruceb]

7 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

And in year 1, he knew they would be bad enough to get one of the top QB's in the draft of year 3?

Pretty sure that the plan to tank called for a two-year tank.

Maybe not in year 1 but almost certainly in year 2.