2024 CB Prospects

[RedGold]

9 hours ago, Scoundrel said:

What school did he play for?

Same was DeJoe 

[indifference]

DeJean looks like a Todd Bowles boundary CB with his ability to jump routes and catch INT's. Not sure if he's on the board at 26 but based on what I've seen from him...he'd be a good fit for what Bowles wants to run(cover 3 bail) 

Looking forward to his pro day

Edited March 12 by indifference

[Kirby Drive]

On 3/10/2024 at 11:37 PM, Scoundrel said:

What school did he play for?

The Hawkeyes

[Jeezla]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Drive said:

The Hawkeyes

This is really going over your head, huh?

It's spelled DeJean. Cooper DeJohn does not exist. 

[kgarrett12486]

As a resident Mizzou fan, I'll give you what I've saw in our CB tandem over the last (2) years - Rakestraw didn't play in 2021 due to ACL and KAD didn't really become full-time strater until 2022.

Ennis Rakestraw: Ideal height range for an outside CB. He's a better athlete than what he tested at for combine. He's got good change of direction and good at mirroring WR, but lacks the long-range recovery speed if he gets beat. Overcomes it though, as he's got good play recognition/IQ. Doesn't have ball skills to make impact though in that regard (INTS and pass breakups). He's not afraid to come up and tackle in run support, but he was also dinged up a lot because of that. He'll be a solid CB for a team that incorporates a lot of man/press coverage. I don't think he ever warranted the 1st round hype you heard due to the him not being a guy that's going to creat turnovers. I'd have him pegged for mid/late 2nd round - early 3rd round.

Kris Abrams-Draine: Ideal height range for an outside CB. Very good athlete athlete and rangy. Shows excellent instincts and never gives up on the play - he had multiple plays where WR looked to win a contested catch and then he would get his hands on ball and pop it out to force the incompletion.  Very aggresive - shows very good knack for jumping routes and was productive in college with INTs, although he also likes to gamble in this aspect and gave up some big plays because of it. Has the ability to play both man coverage and zone. I'd have him as an early 2nd round selection because I think he has chance to be even betetr at the next level with takeaways. 

[Daniel]

35 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

As a resident Mizzou fan, I'll give you what I've saw in our CB tandem over the last (2) years - Rakestraw didn't play in 2021 due to ACL and KAD didn't really become full-time strater until 2022.

Ennis Rakestraw: Ideal height range for an outside CB. He's a better athlete than what he tested at for combine. He's got good change of direction and good at mirroring WR, but lacks the long-range recovery speed if he gets beat. Overcomes it though, as he's got good play recognition/IQ. Doesn't have ball skills to make impact though in that regard (INTS and pass breakups). He's not afraid to come up and tackle in run support, but he was also dinged up a lot because of that. He'll be a solid CB for a team that incorporates a lot of man/press coverage. I don't think he ever warranted the 1st round hype you heard due to the him not being a guy that's going to creat turnovers. I'd have him pegged for mid/late 2nd round - early 3rd round.

Kris Abrams-Draine: Ideal height range for an outside CB. Very good athlete athlete and rangy. Shows excellent instincts and never gives up on the play - he had multiple plays where WR looked to win a contested catch and then he would get his hands on ball and pop it out to force the incompletion.  Very aggresive - shows very good knack for jumping routes and was productive in college with INTs, although he also likes to gamble in this aspect and gave up some big plays because of it. Has the ability to play both man coverage and zone. I'd have him as an early 2nd round selection because I think he has chance to be even betetr at the next level with takeaways. 

KAD was the one that popped on the tape when I was watching Mizzou games.  But that could just be play style.  Dude is a ball hawk, and I really like him.  He's a little lithe, though.  And doesn't look to have a frame to add too much more weight.  I had him as CB1 for a minute.

[goldfishwars]

Quinyon Mitchell is gonna be that player who inches higher and higher out of reach of corner-needy teams when the draft kicks around.

[scar988]

Am I missing something on Quinyon Mitchell? He's a solid enough corner. But why is he getting top 10 love all of a sudden? I just don't get it. I don't see it on film at all.

[Tugboat]

12 hours ago, scar988 said:

Am I missing something on Quinyon Mitchell? He's a solid enough corner. But why is he getting top 10 love all of a sudden? I just don't get it. I don't see it on film at all.

 

Maybe i direct your attention toward an event known as, "The NFL Draft Combine"?  😆

 

In all seriousness though, i just don't see Top-10 being at all realistic.  To draft a DB in the Top-10, they'd better be an absolutely otherworldly special sort of future HoFer projection imo.  But even my own personal philosophy aside...this Top-10 is going to be so loaded with offensive players, Quinyon would have to be the first defensive player off the board to even have a shot at breaching that threshold.  And i just don't see that first defensive player being a DB.

 

First CB off the board though?  I think his athletic performance at the combine, on top of solid tape of him playing good productive football with great timing and instincts, gives him a very good chance of being that guy.  It's really down to him and Terrion Arnold.  Which could even come down to a big of a "big school vs small school" discussion for some teams.  Particularly in that...you've got tape of Arnold going up against future NFL WR1 and 2 type talents.  Who is the best that Quinyon really went head to head with?

[goldfishwars]

1 hour ago, Tugboat said:

 

Maybe i direct your attention toward an event known as, "The NFL Draft Combine"?  😆

 

In all seriousness though, i just don't see Top-10 being at all realistic.  To draft a DB in the Top-10, they'd better be an absolutely otherworldly special sort of future HoFer projection imo.  But even my own personal philosophy aside...this Top-10 is going to be so loaded with offensive players, Quinyon would have to be the first defensive player off the board to even have a shot at breaching that threshold.  And i just don't see that first defensive player being a DB.

 

First CB off the board though?  I think his athletic performance at the combine, on top of solid tape of him playing good productive football with great timing and instincts, gives him a very good chance of being that guy.  It's really down to him and Terrion Arnold.  Which could even come down to a big of a "big school vs small school" discussion for some teams.  Particularly in that...you've got tape of Arnold going up against future NFL WR1 and 2 type talents.  Who is the best that Quinyon really went head to head with?

He was a coveted corner before the season ended and has just enjoyed a really good draft process, ticking off the size and athleticism check boxes (and then some) smaller school guys have to face. He had a dominant Senior Bowl week, too - in reps designed for WR's to succeed and against prospects who will be drafted high. He came into that week with plenty of questions about around how Toledo asked him to play mostly off-man and he was pressing guys to hell and back. He's got that competitive mentality teams love and by all accounts has impressed in interviews.

I just think corner is that position teams take more seriously than fans of teams and amateur scouts. Nearly every year, corners go higher than people expect. It's rare to not see one drafted in the top ten. Personally, I think I would take Arnold if the choice was between the two - but he's been a smidge on the wrong side in a lot of the testing - an inch shorter than 6 feet, a 4.50 instead of a 4.49 forty. He seems like a nice, cerebral dude - maybe a bit too nice in the eyes of evaluators. Not saying this stuff should matter, but it absolutely does. 

[Tugboat]

17 minutes ago, goldfishwars said:

He was a coveted corner before the season ended and has just enjoyed a really good draft process, ticking off the size and athleticism check boxes (and then some) smaller school guys have to face. He had a dominant Senior Bowl week, too - in reps designed for WR's to succeed and against prospects who will be drafted high. He came into that week with plenty of questions about around how Toledo asked him to play mostly off-man and he was pressing guys to hell and back. He's got that competitive mentality teams love and by all accounts has impressed in interviews.

I just think corner is that position teams take more seriously than fans of teams and amateur scouts. Nearly every year, corners go higher than people expect. It's rare to not see one drafted in the top ten. Personally, I think I would take Arnold if the choice was between the two - but he's been a smidge on the wrong side in a lot of the testing - an inch shorter than 6 feet, a 4.50 instead of a 4.49 forty. He seems like a nice, cerebral dude - maybe a bit too nice in the eyes of evaluators. Not saying this stuff should matter, but it absolutely does. 

Yeah.  I think it's probably a "pick 'em" between the two from team to team.

The other thing with CBs is...it might genuinely be the most difficult position to scout, as an amateur draftnik at least.  It's also a position where it can be hugely "scheme dependent".  A guy might be a stud in one system and absolutely useless cut in another.  It can be stark.  So what a given team is even looking for can vary wildly.

 

I think Quinyon and Terrion are both guys who sort of transcend that scheme question.  They've both got all the tools and mentality to play a variety of schemes and roles.  They're "scheme diverse".  Which is part of what makes them such "valuable" commodities.  Where if you're drafting them in the 1st round and your DC gets ****canned next year, they're probably still going to be a good fit for whatever comes in next.  But there are also always these more "specialized" or "limited" guys who could be great in a very niche role for someone, and drafted a lot later for that...because only a third of the league even uses that type of skillset for instance.

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, Tugboat said:

To draft a DB in the Top-10, they'd better be an absolutely otherworldly special sort of future HoFer projection imo.  But even my own personal philosophy aside...this Top-10 is going to be so loaded with offensive players, Quinyon would have to be the first defensive player off the board to even have a shot at breaching that threshold.  And i just don't see that first defensive player being a DB.

 

5 hours ago, goldfishwars said:

I just think corner is that position teams take more seriously than fans of teams and amateur scouts. Nearly every year, corners go higher than people expect. It's rare to not see one drafted in the top ten.

Uh, yeah, I think the general consensus is that CB is a premium position, and the second most valuable position on the entire defense, behind Edge.  Saying they have to be a future HOF player to go top 10 is an absolutely wild take.

I don't think Mitchell goes top 10 though because there are two very highly ranked Edges, 3 receivers, maybe 4 QBs, and at least 2 OTs that probably go before any corner in this class.  I have Mitchell as the top CB, but it's pretty close between him and Arnold IMO.  That said, I haven't watched much of DeJean, and he might be up there if he wasn't injured.

[Tugboat]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

Uh, yeah, I think the general consensus is that CB is a premium position, and the second most valuable position on the entire defense, behind Edge.  Saying they have to be a future HOF player to go top 10 is an absolutely wild take.

I don't think Mitchell goes top 10 though because there are two very highly ranked Edges, 3 receivers, maybe 4 QBs, and at least 2 OTs that probably go before any corner in this class.  I have Mitchell as the top CB, but it's pretty close between him and Arnold IMO.  That said, I haven't watched much of DeJean, and he might be up there if he wasn't injured.

Teams obviously step outside of my own personal philosophy on this all the time.  But my take is...you build a good defense in today's NFL...from the front back.  A lot of NFL brass seem to be shifting this way as well.  There are still plenty of holdouts who believe the opposite.

But you say it's absolute "wild" as a take.  Let's take a stroll down memory lane, with the DBs taken Top-10 in the draft since say...2010.  Recency bias may flatter the idea, but as a whole, it gets pretty ugly.

 

Quote

 

2023:

Devon Witherspoon - promising but jury still very much out.

 

2022:

Derek Stingley Jr - unreal prospect, in the sort of caliber i'm talking about here as worth a Top-10 pick.  Just undeniable "bluechip" talent to be a Top-5 pick and one of the highest drafted CBs of all time.  On his way already.

Sauce Gardner - again, unreal prospect, can't miss, Top-5 sort of talent that walked into the league as a perennial All Pro at his position.  If you've got a guy like that, cool.  Once in a generation sort of DB draft that also happened to be murky or straight up weak at the other "premium" positions.

 

2021:

Jaycee Horn - constantly injured, maybe not even that good otherwise.  I'd say entirely questionable if not dubious he sees a second contract with the drafting team.

Patrick Surtain - strong start, tailing off.  Still a question if he'll see a second contract with his drafting team, if they think it's worth it.  Basically batting .500 at best on this draft year if we're generous.

 

2020:

Jeff Okudah - fits and starts with injuries. May be a decent, but not true impact player if he stays healthy.  On his 3rd team in 5 years, including the drafting team yielding a whole entire...5th round pick a couple years after drafting him.

CJ Henderson - basically just a total bust.  Dealt for a less than a 3rd a year later.  Washed out of the league.

 

2018:

Denzel Ward - solid pick.  Rare "ideal outcome" of a guy who sticks with the team forever too.  But also another one of these Top-5 talents who was hard to miss on.

 

2016:

Jalen Ramsey - solid pick. Again, an undeniable Top-5 talent who was going to make an impact somewhere, at CB/Safety/DB extraordinaire.  Which he did...but he's also now on his 3rd team and didn't even make it out of his rookie deal with the drafting team.

Eli Apple - just floats around.  Depth player who isn't particularly good, changes teams more than he changes his underwear.  Nobody cares.

 

2015:

Trae Waynes - technically picked 11th, but another guy who never panned out.  Just floated around for a while and then gave up.

 

2014:

Justin Gilbert - i guess he's maybe having an okay Arena League career.  Or idk, i don't watch that stuff.  But lmao busts don't get any bigger than this.

 

2013:

Dee Milliner - kinda sucked and then disappeared into the ether.

DJ Hayden - bounced around a bunch, eventually become a serviceable nickel corner for a second by the time he hit his 3rd team.  Washed out.

 

2012:

Mo Claiborne - the example of how even a slam dunk Top-5 talent CB can still go completely wrong.  Just loitered around forever, jumped teams a bunch, washed out without ever doing anything of note beyond becoming a fairly serviceable DB at his absolutely brief peak.

Stephon Gilmore - homerun pick.  But even with everything going right on the player...didn't retain him beyond that rookie deal and it was the next team that reaped the most rewards.  And again moved on from there even.  Because that's what CBs do.  They get shuffled around the league all the time, even when they're "elite".

 

2011:

Patrick Peterson - i mean this one speaks for itself.  He was a Top-5 talent at multiple positions on opposite sides of the ball and a special teams demon to really dominate all three phases.  Just an absolutely unreal freak of nature athlete and football player.  He was as "blue chip" as it comes.  He's an easy HoFer.

 

I count ~6 real impact players (not all of them with their drafting team).  Out of ~17 selections.  Better odds you throw a dart at that list and hit a total bust.  🤷‍♀️

 

So yeah...if Quinyon/Terrion are in that sort of elite tier of "can't miss", throw 'em up in the Top-5.  Do it.  But no...they're clearly not.  They're much more in the realm of that laundry list of busts and guys who have bounced around.  Or the sort of "decent solid corners" who still bounce around a bunch anyway.  The guys where teams reached up into the Top-10 on a fringe talent DB and it was just that...a reach.

It's just a bad investment unless you're talking about can't miss talents.  It's as risky or more so than any other position.  And the "payoff" is very questionable in the long-run.  Where...when push comes to shove, teams let good CBs walk in the middle of their prime all the time.

 

CB is a bit of a weird position in that there's not really such a thing as a "rotational" guy that you can still extract value from.  You can't just...slip them in to "Running Down Situations" to get them some snaps and opportunities.  😆  You can't just "scheme up" a designed play that puts the ball in their hands.  They're either a solid starter, impact player...or basically a bust.  There's zero fallback safety net to salvage value, which just adds to the risk factor.

[Daniel]

You're not actually making the argument you think you're making.

This shows that almost every year, one or two CBs are taken in the top 10.  14 in the last 10 years.  So teams take corners high, a lot.  Let's compare that to all the other defensive positions:

IDL: 6
ILB: 5
Edge: 17
S: 1

Corner is drafted in the top 10 more frequently than any position other than Edge, and at double the rate of IDLs, nearly three times the rate of ILBs.  So CBs are valued way higher than any defensive position other than Edge.

[Tugboat]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

You're not actually making the argument you think you're making.

This shows that almost every year, one or two CBs are taken in the top 10.  14 in the last 10 years.  So teams take corners high, a lot.  Let's compare that to all the other defensive positions:

IDL: 6
ILB: 5
Edge: 17
S: 1

Corner is drafted in the top 10 more frequently than any position other than Edge, and at double the rate of IDLs, nearly three times the rate of ILBs.  So CBs are valued way higher than any defensive position other than Edge.

It's absolutely making the point i think it's making.  Maybe i'm just not getting that point through to you correctly.

 

Teams constantly do something different than what i would do.  I made abundantly clear from the start of this discussion, that teams (as a whole) tend to value CBs a lot more highly than i do.  They draft a ton of CBs way too high.  Especially since even when it works out...basically nobody wins anything on the strength purely of a really strong secondary and they'll probably be gone by their second contract anyway.

 

I'm just elaborating on why, unless it's an absolutely blow my doors off elite superstar prospect...i wouldn't bother with a DB in the Top-10 of the draft.  I think that list is perfectly illustrative of the idea that i'm espousing.  If it's a clear cut undeniable talent that you'd take Top-5?  Go for it!  If it's not, you're probably making a mistake taking them in the Top-10.

 

And diverging but supplemental to that...given the composition of this particular draft, it's just really hard to see teams in the Top-10 messing things up by taking guys like Quinyon/Terrion Top-10.  In a draft that is just absolutely loaded with offensive talent.

Very likely the Top-10 has:  4QB, 3WR, 2-3OT, 1TE.  And that's not even getting into other premium positions like EDGE/DT who are also contending for that "Top Defensive Player Selected".  If i set the O/U for "Defensive Players Selected Top-10" at 1.  Would you confidently bet the over?

 

Do you see either of these CBs as undeniable, can't miss Top-5 talents at the position?