2024 CB Prospects

[Tugboat]

20 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I disagree, and arguably Cooper DeJean has been ball skills and is a better tackler than any CB in the up coming draft, so it is not like he cannot hang but since when is versatility bad?  Fitzpatrick, Kyle Hamilton, Winfield Jr, Jalen Pitre all can play the slot, can play deep coverage, can play in the box, can tackle in the open field, blitz, can cover the TE if asked etc..   Versatility is never bad and the fact DeJean could be a safety is not bad either.

 

And now a days with crossing routes the way they are, a true lock down CB people do not even throw to does not really exist anymore.  Even the top guys get picked on and beat.  There is no CB in the draft where it is like ok never throw to that guy ever.  

 

And slot CB play is extremely important in the NFL today, and that can be done either with a nickel CB, a great safety or a speedy linebacker.  One has to be able to cover in a variety of ways and DeJean can do that.  The kid is a freaking dude and will be the #1 DB taken easily.  Versatility is outstanding and does not mean he is not great in any one area and is average as a player, it means he is great in a variety of ways and can be used in more than just one way.  

 

I mean, that's really just speaking to my point.  Like i said...if you think Dejean is going to be a real Top-10 Safety like those guys, then sure...go for it.  But you're drafting him to be an elite Safety at that point.  What you're talking about there is really more of a high-end, diversified safety skillset.  The reality is, if he has the physical tools to hold up as an outside Corner, most teams are going to prefer to just stick him there and let it ride with serviceable safeties.  I'm not convinced that he fits that profile.  So if you're drafting him to be an elite matchup safety...you're going to want to keep him there in that role as an impact player.  You're not going to shuffle him out as an outside corner because he's maybe kinda okay there.  Renders the "positional versatility" kind of irrelevant either way.  1st round picks...you want to be able to project them as impact, difference-making players in one specific position or role.  Being "kinda okay at something else" isn't a major plus with a premium pick like that...because if you're taking advantage of that, it means they've probably disappointed in that primary projected role. 

It's like drafting a 1st round OT because "well they can probably also kick inside as a Guard".  You draft that 1st round premium talent because you're convinced there's a high likelihood that they have the rare tools to hack it as a quality starting Tackle.  If they have to fall back as a Guard, it's usually because they've disappointed in the intended role.  Even when it's the other way around, you see teams draft a college Tackle with the explicit purpose of making them a G/C.  The ability to play emergency backup Tackle is fine, but that's not why you draft them that high.  You grab them because you think they're going to be an impact G/C.  The rest is just a little bonus contingency.

 

It varies a bit by scheme, and the safety/slot corner distinction has become increasingly murky these days anyway.  But you're also really projecting if you're looking at Dejean as a high safety so that's risk.  And despite having the mentality for it, he can get kind of swallowed up in the box because he just doesn't have that kind of size/strength of a real box safety or LBer.  So if you're ultimately drafting a great slot corner, it's important in today's game...but the value premium isn't necessarily there.  The value premium in the draft is still on the rare athletes.  Guys who have the rare tools and "versatility" to run with a big 4.3 huge catch radius receiver downfield and hold up, lock out those corner routes in the endzone, etc.

 

With the prevalence of pick routes, crossers, bunch releases, etc...i think you're right in that it's devalued or nearly erased the idea of a true "shutdown corner" in the sense of just gluing them to a team's #1 target and call it a day.  But you still need those extremely scarce, premium athletes who can do the rest of those things, especially if you want any semblance of scheme flexibility.  That's where Dejean is interesting in that he's pretty scheme diverse, but he also probably plays a completely different position depending on your scheme.  He might be an outside CB in some situations.  He might be a Safety in some schemes.  In a lot of schemes, i think he's a de facto nickel/slot corner or basically a 3rd Safety that doesn't leave the field.

 

He's probably my favorite DB in the draft.  I love the instincts, ball skills, and the mentality he plays with.  I just don't love spending premium 1st round picks on a guy with serious positional ambiguity.  If you're drafting him high...you'd better have a darn good read on what exactly he's going to do for you, at an impact/elite level.  And even then, there's always the chance that with a Defensive Coordinator/Scheme change, the guy turns into a total pumpkin.

 

7 hours ago, Ozzy said:

That was a typo on my part, I was saying  good arm and leg strength instead of "with good arm and length strength"

 

The dude is cut, very strong and thick legs as well, physically he is very impressive I would say compared to most very thin corners.  And no I would not say he has super long arms at all, but so what with ball skills that he does have.  

I mean yes, this is true.  But you're not drafting for a bodybuilding competition.

Things like those shorter arms can potentially hurt him at the NFL level, even with the tremendous instincts and ball skills he has.  At some point, he's going to end up on a stud #1 Receiver or TE with much longer arms and catch radius and better speed who also has great instincts and ball skills.  If that's what you're drafting the guy to do, and presumably if it's high in the 1st round, that's what you're expecting...he's going to come up against guys with much more length to go and catch way outside their frame.  That can be a real problem.

 

Again, i think he's a great football player.  He certainly could end up the best DB out of this whole draft.  I still just question the premium pricetag in the draft, if he's lacking some of those premium tools and has this positional ambiguity around him.

 

It's like everyone drooling over Isaiah Simmons because "wow much versatile very flexible".  But in the NFL, coaches want to be able to just slot a guy into a designated role and not have to worry about tailoring every snap to one guy's "tweener" skillset.  Especially for a rookie or young player who very much doesn't need to be overloaded with all sorts of extra information to process.  Even Micah Parsons is a case where things went very right.  But they only really started to go right when he landed with a DC who understood and built a niche role specifically for what he does well (or well, he's always had that role in his defenses).  You've gotta have either a clear position in mind, or a clear plan to create a new position/role for ambiguous guys.

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, Tugboat said:

 

I mean, that's really just speaking to my point.  Like i said...if you think Dejean is going to be a real Top-10 Safety like those guys, then sure...go for it.  But you're drafting him to be an elite Safety at that point.  What you're talking about there is really more of a high-end, diversified safety skillset.  The reality is, if he has the physical tools to hold up as an outside Corner, most teams are going to prefer to just stick him there and let it ride with serviceable safeties.  I'm not convinced that he fits that profile.  So if you're drafting him to be an elite matchup safety...you're going to want to keep him there in that role as an impact player.  You're not going to shuffle him out as an outside corner because he's maybe kinda okay there.  Renders the "positional versatility" kind of irrelevant either way.  1st round picks...you want to be able to project them as impact, difference-making players in one specific position or role.  Being "kinda okay at something else" isn't a major plus with a premium pick like that...because if you're taking advantage of that, it means they've probably disappointed in that primary projected role. 

It's like drafting a 1st round OT because "well they can probably also kick inside as a Guard".  You draft that 1st round premium talent because you're convinced there's a high likelihood that they have the rare tools to hack it as a quality starting Tackle.  If they have to fall back as a Guard, it's usually because they've disappointed in the intended role.  Even when it's the other way around, you see teams draft a college Tackle with the explicit purpose of making them a G/C.  The ability to play emergency backup Tackle is fine, but that's not why you draft them that high.  You grab them because you think they're going to be an impact G/C.  The rest is just a little bonus contingency.

 

It varies a bit by scheme, and the safety/slot corner distinction has become increasingly murky these days anyway.  But you're also really projecting if you're looking at Dejean as a high safety so that's risk.  And despite having the mentality for it, he can get kind of swallowed up in the box because he just doesn't have that kind of size/strength of a real box safety or LBer.  So if you're ultimately drafting a great slot corner, it's important in today's game...but the value premium isn't necessarily there.  The value premium in the draft is still on the rare athletes.  Guys who have the rare tools and "versatility" to run with a big 4.3 huge catch radius receiver downfield and hold up, lock out those corner routes in the endzone, etc.

 

With the prevalence of pick routes, crossers, bunch releases, etc...i think you're right in that it's devalued or nearly erased the idea of a true "shutdown corner" in the sense of just gluing them to a team's #1 target and call it a day.  But you still need those extremely scarce, premium athletes who can do the rest of those things, especially if you want any semblance of scheme flexibility.  That's where Dejean is interesting in that he's pretty scheme diverse, but he also probably plays a completely different position depending on your scheme.  He might be an outside CB in some situations.  He might be a Safety in some schemes.  In a lot of schemes, i think he's a de facto nickel/slot corner or basically a 3rd Safety that doesn't leave the field.

 

He's probably my favorite DB in the draft.  I love the instincts, ball skills, and the mentality he plays with.  I just don't love spending premium 1st round picks on a guy with serious positional ambiguity.  If you're drafting him high...you'd better have a darn good read on what exactly he's going to do for you, at an impact/elite level.  And even then, there's always the chance that with a Defensive Coordinator/Scheme change, the guy turns into a total pumpkin.

 

I mean yes, this is true.  But you're not drafting for a bodybuilding competition.

Things like those shorter arms can potentially hurt him at the NFL level, even with the tremendous instincts and ball skills he has.  At some point, he's going to end up on a stud #1 Receiver or TE with much longer arms and catch radius and better speed who also has great instincts and ball skills.  If that's what you're drafting the guy to do, and presumably if it's high in the 1st round, that's what you're expecting...he's going to come up against guys with much more length to go and catch way outside their frame.  That can be a real problem.

 

Again, i think he's a great football player.  He certainly could end up the best DB out of this whole draft.  I still just question the premium pricetag in the draft, if he's lacking some of those premium tools and has this positional ambiguity around him.

 

It's like everyone drooling over Isaiah Simmons because "wow much versatile very flexible".  But in the NFL, coaches want to be able to just slot a guy into a designated role and not have to worry about tailoring every snap to one guy's "tweener" skillset.  Especially for a rookie or young player who very much doesn't need to be overloaded with all sorts of extra information to process.  Even Micah Parsons is a case where things went very right.  But they only really started to go right when he landed with a DC who understood and built a niche role specifically for what he does well (or well, he's always had that role in his defenses).  You've gotta have either a clear position in mind, or a clear plan to create a new position/role for ambiguous guys.

Isaiah Simmons has disappointed in the NFL I would guess is because mentally he is beyond questionable, anyone that is that great of an athlete and fails clearly has some issues with his character, toughness, work ethic or something because any basic practice, study and improvement he should be able to play in the league and find a role easily.  But obviously his instincts are not great, must not really study the game, or does not practice or learn well and just wants the results but is not committed to the process.  That is my assumption, not sure his failure was lack of position, it was his lack of not doing certain things to improve despite being a great athlete which obviously he relied on greatly before he got to the NFL.  He does have the issue of toughness though, not tough enough to play linebacker but cannot sick down low enough as a safety to go backwards and have quickness to change direction.  Then again it is only his 4th season so he still does have time to change and improve his mindset potentially.  

 

 

Cooper DeJean is a standout athlete I would say and will impress at the combine.  Dude was a four sport athlete in high school, is what 6-1 and can throw down some insane dunks or at least did in high school so he has a 35"-40"+ vertical is my guess.  Just his punt return skills alone show his athletic ability and impressive acceleration because it is rare and not that easy to do for a CB.  He I believe has that work ethic, ability to study and improve and the high character to get better.  He will not fail in the NFL, hell worst case he will be a Pro Bowl special team gunner if everything else fails but it will not.  

 

In terms of safety, that is brought up because the dude is physically put together and is a hell of a lot strong than most corners and is a fine tackler because of it.  He would have no problem taking the contact and playing in the box or around the line of scrimmage if a team asked him to do that.  There has been far thinner and smaller safeties in the NFL that have had success so why could DeJean not.  He is great going downhill also, and would be an above average in coverage as a safety.

 

I would have no problem putting him on the boundary at all at any point, a lot of safeties or slot corners I would have a big problem with that.  Not with DeJean, he could hang outside, it is just a matter of where he gets drafted and who they have on the roster thus again versatility is great and I think he could easily be moved around and it would to be difficult for him.    Ravens, Chiefs, Lions, 49ers all of them have a variety of options in the slot.  Lions had three before the injuries to Jacobs and Moseley but Branch has filled in the slot and Gardner-Johnson is super versatile but has also missed a ton of the season.  McDuffie on the Chiefs is great at it, 49ers have Thomas and also those super fast linebackers to do slot coverage, Ravens have Hamilton who is all over the place and can also swing in Maulet or Darby if need be.  Depth at DB is so important and having a variety of guys and the more they can do the better.  Look at the Vikings this past year, Byron Murphy was their best slot CB and by far their best boundary CB as well, without him those last few games that defense was totally different and really sucked.  Heck DeJean at #11 makes a ton of sense for them because of that versatility thus if the need is there he could easily go top 15, but they could also go QB and if other teams do not want a DB he drops, does not mean he is not potentially a great pro.

 

In terms of value, if one only drafts a "lock down" corner top 15 then no CB in this draft should be picked that high.  

[Scoundrel]

Terrion Arnold is a fun player. Extremely sticky in man and a great run defender. Very good hall skills and still 20 til second half of March. 

Wiggins I saw gave up a 1.7 QBR in zone. Only 95 snaps in zone coverage this year but still impressive. 

[Tugboat]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Isaiah Simmons has disappointed in the NFL I would guess is because mentally he is beyond questionable, anyone that is that great of an athlete and fails clearly has some issues with his character, toughness, work ethic or something because any basic practice, study and improvement he should be able to play in the league and find a role easily.  But obviously his instincts are not great, must not really study the game, or does not practice or learn well and just wants the results but is not committed to the process.  That is my assumption, not sure his failure was lack of position, it was his lack of not doing certain things to improve despite being a great athlete which obviously he relied on greatly before he got to the NFL.  He does have the issue of toughness though, not tough enough to play linebacker but cannot sick down low enough as a safety to go backwards and have quickness to change direction.  Then again it is only his 4th season so he still does have time to change and improve his mindset potentially.  

 

I think there were probably a lot of things that ended up being missing with Simmons, but the point stands...he was a standout college player who "couldn't miss because he can play anywhere".  But he missed, because he couldn't actually make an impact anywhere.  That's the risk with these "well maybe they'd be good here instead" type players.  It's why having a clear plan in place is critical.

So if you're drafting Dejean...you've gotta know what you're doing.  What exactly are you drafting him to be?  Because yes, he has some skills that might allow him to survive at a variety of roles in the secondary depending on scheme and a lot of other things...but you're already asking a guy to make that huge jump from NCAA to NFL.  You need to identify that key role he's going to play while he gets acclimatized to the massive ramp up in speed, physicality, talent, scheme complexity, etc.  Throwing rookies into like 5 different roles at once is a recipe for failure.

 

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Cooper DeJean is a standout athlete I would say and will impress at the combine.  Dude was a four sport athlete in high school, is what 6-1 and can throw down some insane dunks or at least did in high school so he has a 35"-40"+ vertical is my guess.  Just his punt return skills alone show his athletic ability and impressive acceleration because it is rare and not that easy to do for a CB.  He I believe has that work ethic, ability to study and improve and the high character to get better.  He will not fail in the NFL, hell worst case he will be a Pro Bowl special team gunner if everything else fails but it will not.  

I think the combine will be big for him.  He's going to show out in some respects for sure.  He'll absolutely lap the field on DB bench reps.  lol.  He'll probably post some good numbers as a jumper and agility drills should be easy for him as a real fluid, natural mover.  But there are other things that are going to come up like the previously mentioned arm length, what his 40 time and splits look like.  I'm not as sure on those.  He's clearly a natural athlete but whether he's going to be a freak athletic specimen, i'm not as sure.

 

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

In terms of safety, that is brought up because the dude is physically put together and is a hell of a lot strong than most corners and is a fine tackler because of it.  He would have no problem taking the contact and playing in the box or around the line of scrimmage if a team asked him to do that.  There has been far thinner and smaller safeties in the NFL that have had success so why could DeJean not.  He is great going downhill also, and would be an above average in coverage as a safety.

 

I don't say this strictly because of his size.  I say that he might struggle if he's brought down into the box in the NFL, because...i've seen him get washed out of plenty of plays at the college level when he gets dragged down into the box.  Not for a lack of willingness to stick his nose in there, but mixing it up in there, he's just not big enough or slippery enough, or opportunistic enough.  WR blocks?  Shed.  College TE blocks?  nbd.  But those bigguns get around him and he just gets redirected and his aggressive downhill nature puts him in that line of fire more than a typical safety with his sort of build.

 

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

I would have no problem putting him on the boundary at all at any point, a lot of safeties or slot corners I would have a big problem with that.  Not with DeJean, he could hang outside, it is just a matter of where he gets drafted and who they have on the roster thus again versatility is great and I think he could easily be moved around and it would to be difficult for him.    Ravens, Chiefs, Lions, 49ers all of them have a variety of options in the slot.  Lions had three before the injuries to Jacobs and Moseley but Branch has filled in the slot and Gardner-Johnson is super versatile but has also missed a ton of the season.  McDuffie on the Chiefs is great at it, 49ers have Thomas and also those super fast linebackers to do slot coverage, Ravens have Hamilton who is all over the place and can also swing in Maulet or Darby if need be.  Depth at DB is so important and having a variety of guys and the more they can do the better.  Look at the Vikings this past year, Byron Murphy was their best slot CB and by far their best boundary CB as well, without him those last few games that defense was totally different and really sucked.  Heck DeJean at #11 makes a ton of sense for them because of that versatility thus if the need is there he could easily go top 15, but they could also go QB and if other teams do not want a DB he drops, does not mean he is not potentially a great pro.

 

It's funny you mention CJGJ as that's kind of who really comes to mind for me with with Dejean.  Though the former had more to go on as a hybrid multi-position DB and also went much later in the draft.  But even a guy like that, who i also love as a player...i'll take him on my team any day...well, he didn't see a second contract with the team that drafted him.  Heck, he's on his third team already.  He'll probably be at 4 teams in 6 years.  That's where i question the real "value" of the pick, even if it's a darn good football player.

Even these other guys...a lot of them are not premium high 1st round picks.  A lot of them are basically "found money" for someone else who scooped them up later.  Didn't garner a second contract type guys.  Or an absolute freakish safety like Hamilton.

 

I think you're kind of conflating the idea of an elite safety who can move around and do absolutely anything you want including different coverage assignments...with just being a "great slot corner with some traits that could be useful in other roles".

 

I mean, i feel bad because it seems like i'm just ripping on Dejean.  I actually really do love the player and would happily take him on my team.  He'll find a spot somewhere.  I just think the whole "versatility" thing is massively overstated unless you're talking about an actually elite Safety who can do it all.  And as much as i love Dejean's game...i don't necessarily have a lot of confidence in projecting that.  Which is the thing that would make him clearly worth a high 1st round pick for me.

 

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

In terms of value, if one only drafts a "lock down" corner top 15 then no CB in this draft should be picked that high.  

 

This i can agree on.  But then...i just kind of hate high 1st rounders burned on DBs in general.  Unless they have absolutely elite traits and film that they're basically a can't miss bluechip perennial ProBowler...you can find these guys via trade, Free Agency, Days 2 and 3 of the draft.  It's often a super scheme-dependent position group.  You might find a guy who is a great zone corner who becomes completely useless to you if you happen to switch Coaches or DCs.  Or any combination of that change.

To me, the only DBs who are truly worth a 1st round pick...are the ones with absolutely undeniable elite traits who are basically "scheme proof".  The ones who can be an impact player in one specific position or role, regardless of what scheme you're running.

[BetterCallSaul]

6 hours ago, Tugboat said:

So if you're drafting Dejean...you've gotta know what you're doing.  What exactly are you drafting him to be? 

Yep. And I think the answer is simple. If you’re a man team, he’s a safety. If you’re a zone team, he’s an outside corner.

NFL DC’s will overthink it and play him everywhere before realizing what he is.

I love Dejean. Probably my top rated defensive player. He and Kinchens…and I prefer Dejean, who is decidedly more athletic. 

[Ragnarok]

I'd love to see a team use DeJean like Winfield Jr.  Top-down safety, box body, blitzer, slot CB...he can do it all.

[Ozzy]

22 hours ago, Tugboat said:

 

I think there were probably a lot of things that ended up being missing with Simmons, but the point stands...he was a standout college player who "couldn't miss because he can play anywhere".  But he missed, because he couldn't actually make an impact anywhere.  That's the risk with these "well maybe they'd be good here instead" type players.  It's why having a clear plan in place is critical.

So if you're drafting Dejean...you've gotta know what you're doing.  What exactly are you drafting him to be?  Because yes, he has some skills that might allow him to survive at a variety of roles in the secondary depending on scheme and a lot of other things...but you're already asking a guy to make that huge jump from NCAA to NFL.  You need to identify that key role he's going to play while he gets acclimatized to the massive ramp up in speed, physicality, talent, scheme complexity, etc.  Throwing rookies into like 5 different roles at once is a recipe for failure.

 

I think the combine will be big for him.  He's going to show out in some respects for sure.  He'll absolutely lap the field on DB bench reps.  lol.  He'll probably post some good numbers as a jumper and agility drills should be easy for him as a real fluid, natural mover.  But there are other things that are going to come up like the previously mentioned arm length, what his 40 time and splits look like.  I'm not as sure on those.  He's clearly a natural athlete but whether he's going to be a freak athletic specimen, i'm not as sure.

 

 

I don't say this strictly because of his size.  I say that he might struggle if he's brought down into the box in the NFL, because...i've seen him get washed out of plenty of plays at the college level when he gets dragged down into the box.  Not for a lack of willingness to stick his nose in there, but mixing it up in there, he's just not big enough or slippery enough, or opportunistic enough.  WR blocks?  Shed.  College TE blocks?  nbd.  But those bigguns get around him and he just gets redirected and his aggressive downhill nature puts him in that line of fire more than a typical safety with his sort of build.

 

 

It's funny you mention CJGJ as that's kind of who really comes to mind for me with with Dejean.  Though the former had more to go on as a hybrid multi-position DB and also went much later in the draft.  But even a guy like that, who i also love as a player...i'll take him on my team any day...well, he didn't see a second contract with the team that drafted him.  Heck, he's on his third team already.  He'll probably be at 4 teams in 6 years.  That's where i question the real "value" of the pick, even if it's a darn good football player.

Even these other guys...a lot of them are not premium high 1st round picks.  A lot of them are basically "found money" for someone else who scooped them up later.  Didn't garner a second contract type guys.  Or an absolute freakish safety like Hamilton.

 

I think you're kind of conflating the idea of an elite safety who can move around and do absolutely anything you want including different coverage assignments...with just being a "great slot corner with some traits that could be useful in other roles".

 

I mean, i feel bad because it seems like i'm just ripping on Dejean.  I actually really do love the player and would happily take him on my team.  He'll find a spot somewhere.  I just think the whole "versatility" thing is massively overstated unless you're talking about an actually elite Safety who can do it all.  And as much as i love Dejean's game...i don't necessarily have a lot of confidence in projecting that.  Which is the thing that would make him clearly worth a high 1st round pick for me.

 

 

This i can agree on.  But then...i just kind of hate high 1st rounders burned on DBs in general.  Unless they have absolutely elite traits and film that they're basically a can't miss bluechip perennial ProBowler...you can find these guys via trade, Free Agency, Days 2 and 3 of the draft.  It's often a super scheme-dependent position group.  You might find a guy who is a great zone corner who becomes completely useless to you if you happen to switch Coaches or DCs.  Or any combination of that change.

To me, the only DBs who are truly worth a 1st round pick...are the ones with absolutely undeniable elite traits who are basically "scheme proof".  The ones who can be an impact player in one specific position or role, regardless of what scheme you're running.

There are just not many comparisons for Cooper DeJean.  Dax Hill is a player coming into the league who was pretty much a safety only on Michigan and has been a safety in the NFL but I feel he could have played boundary corner or could have played slot also.  The kid has skills and is versatile and not many safeties can play CB it is more like you said, a failed CB try then are moved to safety.  That is not going to happen to DeJean, he could be moved to safety but that is not because he would be awful at CB.

 

Another one being he is white and just being a white guy most assume he cannot play CB, then again not many in history have ever been that good at it, Jason Sehorn and...  Riley Moss the former Iowa CB was always assumed to switch to safety also but DeJean is by far superior to Moss in every way athletically.   And when in college some thought Christian McCaffrey could not play RB and even up to the draft some thought that....  And I think DeJean is a rare enough athlete to pull it off, sure he is better in more zone type coverage than straight man to man but not many CBs have his ball skills much less his return ability after he makes an interception.  

 

The guy is a crazy good athlete and those hops for someone 6-1 is extremely impressive.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

I'd love to see a team use DeJean like Winfield Jr.  Top-down safety, box body, blitzer, slot CB...he can do it all.

Very true, same type of versatility just not the bloodline Winfield Jr has.  DeJean is not as good of a tackler right now that Winfield Jr was coming out of college, but Winfield Jr had a dad who was only one of the best tackling DBs in the history of the NFL.  In zone I think he would be just fine at corner but could be best free and able to move around.  Sometimes cover, sometimes blitz and it would be nice to have a strong dude like him out on smaller weaker WRs.

 

If the Vikings do not take him he could fall a bit, Colts need DBs also but ideally he would fit great in Pittsburgh with how he plays.  Could be used in the slot with them or on the outside as well.  Or could learn from Fitzpatrick as a safety who like DeJean was considered to be a corner who was going to move to safety but really who cares, Fitzpatrick is awesome and he is awesome because of his awareness, toughness and ball skills.  DeJean has all of those attributes.  

[Jeezla]

When is Iowa State pro day? I need to see what TJ Tampa runs.

[Kirby Drive]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:53 AM, Tugboat said:

 

I mean, that's really just speaking to my point.  Like i said...if you think Dejean is going to be a real Top-10 Safety like those guys, then sure...go for it.  But you're drafting him to be an elite Safety at that point.  What you're talking about there is really more of a high-end, diversified safety skillset.  The reality is, if he has the physical tools to hold up as an outside Corner, most teams are going to prefer to just stick him there and let it ride with serviceable safeties.  I'm not convinced that he fits that profile.  So if you're drafting him to be an elite matchup safety...you're going to want to keep him there in that role as an impact player.  You're not going to shuffle him out as an outside corner because he's maybe kinda okay there.  Renders the "positional versatility" kind of irrelevant either way.  1st round picks...you want to be able to project them as impact, difference-making players in one specific position or role.  Being "kinda okay at something else" isn't a major plus with a premium pick like that...because if you're taking advantage of that, it means they've probably disappointed in that primary projected role. 

It's like drafting a 1st round OT because "well they can probably also kick inside as a Guard".  You draft that 1st round premium talent because you're convinced there's a high likelihood that they have the rare tools to hack it as a quality starting Tackle.  If they have to fall back as a Guard, it's usually because they've disappointed in the intended role.  Even when it's the other way around, you see teams draft a college Tackle with the explicit purpose of making them a G/C.  The ability to play emergency backup Tackle is fine, but that's not why you draft them that high.  You grab them because you think they're going to be an impact G/C.  The rest is just a little bonus contingency.

 

It varies a bit by scheme, and the safety/slot corner distinction has become increasingly murky these days anyway.  But you're also really projecting if you're looking at Dejean as a high safety so that's risk.  And despite having the mentality for it, he can get kind of swallowed up in the box because he just doesn't have that kind of size/strength of a real box safety or LBer.  So if you're ultimately drafting a great slot corner, it's important in today's game...but the value premium isn't necessarily there.  The value premium in the draft is still on the rare athletes.  Guys who have the rare tools and "versatility" to run with a big 4.3 huge catch radius receiver downfield and hold up, lock out those corner routes in the endzone, etc.

 

With the prevalence of pick routes, crossers, bunch releases, etc...i think you're right in that it's devalued or nearly erased the idea of a true "shutdown corner" in the sense of just gluing them to a team's #1 target and call it a day.  But you still need those extremely scarce, premium athletes who can do the rest of those things, especially if you want any semblance of scheme flexibility.  That's where Dejean is interesting in that he's pretty scheme diverse, but he also probably plays a completely different position depending on your scheme.  He might be an outside CB in some situations.  He might be a Safety in some schemes.  In a lot of schemes, i think he's a de facto nickel/slot corner or basically a 3rd Safety that doesn't leave the field.

 

He's probably my favorite DB in the draft.  I love the instincts, ball skills, and the mentality he plays with.  I just don't love spending premium 1st round picks on a guy with serious positional ambiguity.  If you're drafting him high...you'd better have a darn good read on what exactly he's going to do for you, at an impact/elite level.  And even then, there's always the chance that with a Defensive Coordinator/Scheme change, the guy turns into a total pumpkin.

 

I mean yes, this is true.  But you're not drafting for a bodybuilding competition.

Things like those shorter arms can potentially hurt him at the NFL level, even with the tremendous instincts and ball skills he has.  At some point, he's going to end up on a stud #1 Receiver or TE with much longer arms and catch radius and better speed who also has great instincts and ball skills.  If that's what you're drafting the guy to do, and presumably if it's high in the 1st round, that's what you're expecting...he's going to come up against guys with much more length to go and catch way outside their frame.  That can be a real problem.

 

Again, i think he's a great football player.  He certainly could end up the best DB out of this whole draft.  I still just question the premium pricetag in the draft, if he's lacking some of those premium tools and has this positional ambiguity around him.

 

It's like everyone drooling over Isaiah Simmons because "wow much versatile very flexible".  But in the NFL, coaches want to be able to just slot a guy into a designated role and not have to worry about tailoring every snap to one guy's "tweener" skillset.  Especially for a rookie or young player who very much doesn't need to be overloaded with all sorts of extra information to process.  Even Micah Parsons is a case where things went very right.  But they only really started to go right when he landed with a DC who understood and built a niche role specifically for what he does well (or well, he's always had that role in his defenses).  You've gotta have either a clear position in mind, or a clear plan to create a new position/role for ambiguous guys.

I agree with this post.

But Ronnie Lott played his first couple of years as a corner. I can really envision DeJean being a great fit in a Demeco Ryans defense as an outside corner opposite Stingley. Re-sign Nelson and figure out where DeJohn fits best. DeJohn is a play maker who is best facing the QB in zone coverage. Ryans runs quite a bit of zone. I would like to see how DeJohn looks in man to man. Another comforting thing is Ferentz is known for putting out NFL ready CB's.

Not saying I want DeJohn to be the pick at 1-23, but I wouldn't be disappointed.

[Daniel]

Trying somebody at corner before you move them to safety is the DB equivalent of trying a guy at tackle before you move him to guard.

[cp0k2]

10 hours ago, Jeezla said:

When is Iowa State pro day? I need to see what TJ Tampa runs.

Per Sporting News - "The Big 12 is revolutionizing how pro days are held. It will host a majority of the conference between March 27-30 at the Dallas Cowboys headquarters and practice facility. Texas will have its own NFL pro day on March 20.

Quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, and defensive backs will compete on March 27 and 28, while the lineman will perform on March 29 and 30."

[Scoundrel]

2 hours ago, Kirby Drive said:

I agree with this post.

But Ronnie Lott played his first couple of years as a corner. I can really envision DeJean being a great fit in a Demeco Ryans defense as an outside corner opposite Stingley. Re-sign Nelson and figure out where DeJohn fits best. DeJohn is a play maker who is best facing the QB in zone coverage. Ryans runs quite a bit of zone. I would like to see how DeJohn looks in man to man. Another comforting thing is Ferentz is known for putting out NFL ready CB's.

Not saying I want DeJohn to be the pick at 1-23, but I wouldn't be disappointed.

Good ole DeJohn

[INbengalfan]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:53 AM, Tugboat said:

 

I mean, that's really just speaking to my point.  Like i said...if you think Dejean is going to be a real Top-10 Safety like those guys, then sure...go for it.  But you're drafting him to be an elite Safety at that point.  What you're talking about there is really more of a high-end, diversified safety skillset.  The reality is, if he has the physical tools to hold up as an outside Corner, most teams are going to prefer to just stick him there and let it ride with serviceable safeties.  I'm not convinced that he fits that profile.  So if you're drafting him to be an elite matchup safety...you're going to want to keep him there in that role as an impact player.  You're not going to shuffle him out as an outside corner because he's maybe kinda okay there.  Renders the "positional versatility" kind of irrelevant either way.  1st round picks...you want to be able to project them as impact, difference-making players in one specific position or role.  Being "kinda okay at something else" isn't a major plus with a premium pick like that...because if you're taking advantage of that, it means they've probably disappointed in that primary projected role. 

It's like drafting a 1st round OT because "well they can probably also kick inside as a Guard".  You draft that 1st round premium talent because you're convinced there's a high likelihood that they have the rare tools to hack it as a quality starting Tackle.  If they have to fall back as a Guard, it's usually because they've disappointed in the intended role.  Even when it's the other way around, you see teams draft a college Tackle with the explicit purpose of making them a G/C.  The ability to play emergency backup Tackle is fine, but that's not why you draft them that high.  You grab them because you think they're going to be an impact G/C.  The rest is just a little bonus contingency.

 

It varies a bit by scheme, and the safety/slot corner distinction has become increasingly murky these days anyway.  But you're also really projecting if you're looking at Dejean as a high safety so that's risk.  And despite having the mentality for it, he can get kind of swallowed up in the box because he just doesn't have that kind of size/strength of a real box safety or LBer.  So if you're ultimately drafting a great slot corner, it's important in today's game...but the value premium isn't necessarily there.  The value premium in the draft is still on the rare athletes.  Guys who have the rare tools and "versatility" to run with a big 4.3 huge catch radius receiver downfield and hold up, lock out those corner routes in the endzone, etc.

 

With the prevalence of pick routes, crossers, bunch releases, etc...i think you're right in that it's devalued or nearly erased the idea of a true "shutdown corner" in the sense of just gluing them to a team's #1 target and call it a day.  But you still need those extremely scarce, premium athletes who can do the rest of those things, especially if you want any semblance of scheme flexibility.  That's where Dejean is interesting in that he's pretty scheme diverse, but he also probably plays a completely different position depending on your scheme.  He might be an outside CB in some situations.  He might be a Safety in some schemes.  In a lot of schemes, i think he's a de facto nickel/slot corner or basically a 3rd Safety that doesn't leave the field.

 

He's probably my favorite DB in the draft.  I love the instincts, ball skills, and the mentality he plays with.  I just don't love spending premium 1st round picks on a guy with serious positional ambiguity.  If you're drafting him high...you'd better have a darn good read on what exactly he's going to do for you, at an impact/elite level.  And even then, there's always the chance that with a Defensive Coordinator/Scheme change, the guy turns into a total pumpkin.

 

I mean yes, this is true.  But you're not drafting for a bodybuilding competition.

Things like those shorter arms can potentially hurt him at the NFL level, even with the tremendous instincts and ball skills he has.  At some point, he's going to end up on a stud #1 Receiver or TE with much longer arms and catch radius and better speed who also has great instincts and ball skills.  If that's what you're drafting the guy to do, and presumably if it's high in the 1st round, that's what you're expecting...he's going to come up against guys with much more length to go and catch way outside their frame.  That can be a real problem.

 

Again, i think he's a great football player.  He certainly could end up the best DB out of this whole draft.  I still just question the premium pricetag in the draft, if he's lacking some of those premium tools and has this positional ambiguity around him.

 

It's like everyone drooling over Isaiah Simmons because "wow much versatile very flexible".  But in the NFL, coaches want to be able to just slot a guy into a designated role and not have to worry about tailoring every snap to one guy's "tweener" skillset.  Especially for a rookie or young player who very much doesn't need to be overloaded with all sorts of extra information to process.  Even Micah Parsons is a case where things went very right.  But they only really started to go right when he landed with a DC who understood and built a niche role specifically for what he does well (or well, he's always had that role in his defenses).  You've gotta have either a clear position in mind, or a clear plan to create a new position/role for ambiguous guys.

This all day.  It's the same problem the Bengals are currently dealing with when they drafted Dax Hill.  He is really good at a lot of tings, but isn't great at the thing they drafted him to be, so now there's talk about moving him all around, which stunts his growth at one specific role.

[Kirby Drive]

23 hours ago, Scoundrel said:

Good ole DeJohn

He's solid and has great ball skills

[Scoundrel]

1 minute ago, Kirby Drive said:

He's solid and has great ball skills

What school did he play for?