Will the Ravens ever win the Superbowl with Lamar Jackson?

[Chiefer]

On 1/31/2024 at 4:53 PM, MaddHatter said:

It is interesting how his reputation changed from his time in Philly to now

Mahomes does that to you

[Soggust]

The choker label is so funny and bs imo lol

[BullsandBroncos]

Not unless he starts frenching the refs like Reid and Mahomes.

[BroncoSojia]

8 hours ago, Soggust said:

The choker label is so funny and bs imo lol

If "choking" isn't a thing, then how do you explain James Harden's performances in the playoffs year after year?

[Soggust]

2 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

If "choking" isn't a thing, then how do you explain James Harden's performances in the playoffs year after year?

I don't follow basketball so it's hard to give you a fair answer, but I'd assume I'd lean towards small samples and good competition (being playoffs) as my default go-tos in most convos lol

[CriminalMind]

Same shot as the other top 7 QBs

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

15 hours ago, Soggust said:

The choker label is so funny and bs imo lol

I totally understand the choking thing, even if it's just for the playoffs. Fact is with Lamar, he's not good in clutch situations even outside of the playoffs. When the game is on the line or we need to make a 4th quarter GWD and Lamar has the ball, I do not feel confident whatsoever.

And of course this is curious because Lamar's splits when trailing are actually his best splits period as a QB.

Lamar Jackson Career Splits | Pro-Football-Reference.com

36 TD's | 7 INT | 106.9 QBR | 8.69 AY/A

Idk if it's mainly just he fumbles a lot and PFR doesn't account for that in the advanced splits, but in the 39 games that are 0-7 points, Lamar has 23 fumbles (12 lost) and we're 21-18 in those games.

In our 24 losses, Lamar has 19 fumbles (10 lost).

What I'm trying to say is that I could probably go back and look at every loss and see how Lamar played in the 4th quarter of those, but specifically this year and last year, Lamar has routinely crumbled when the game is on the line. Notably this year, despite the poor showing from our WR's in the first Pittsburgh game, Lamar had a chance to win the game I think twice and turned it over twice to ice the game.

Lamar is great when he can use his legs to ice a game, but asking him to throw to ice a game or make a comeback usually results in bad things happening.

[Soggust]

3 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I totally understand the choking thing, even if it's just for the playoffs. Fact is with Lamar, he's not good in clutch situations even outside of the playoffs. When the game is on the line or we need to make a 4th quarter GWD and Lamar has the ball, I do not feel confident whatsoever.

And of course this is curious because Lamar's splits when trailing are actually his best splits period as a QB.

Lamar Jackson Career Splits | Pro-Football-Reference.com

36 TD's | 7 INT | 106.9 QBR | 8.69 AY/A

Idk if it's mainly just he fumbles a lot and PFR doesn't account for that in the advanced splits, but in the 39 games that are 0-7 points, Lamar has 23 fumbles (12 lost) and we're 21-18 in those games.

In our 24 losses, Lamar has 19 fumbles (10 lost).

What I'm trying to say is that I could probably go back and look at every loss and see how Lamar played in the 4th quarter of those, but specifically this year and last year, Lamar has routinely crumbled when the game is on the line. Notably this year, despite the poor showing from our WR's in the first Pittsburgh game, Lamar had a chance to win the game I think twice and turned it over twice to ice the game.

Lamar is great when he can use his legs to ice a game, but asking him to throw to ice a game or make a comeback usually results in bad things happening.

All strong points. 

But let me ask you this as someone who is legitimately concerned about Lamar in big situations -

If you were going straight into the playoffs with a generic team next year - would you rather have Lamar or Flacco? 

if your answer is Lamar, it’s because we don’t really believe in clutch right? Or, at least, we still believe in the better QB. 

If your answer is Flacco, well I wouldnt really be prepared for that so I’ll just say you’re wrong lol. 

[BroncoSojia]

2 hours ago, Soggust said:

All strong points. 

But let me ask you this as someone who is legitimately concerned about Lamar in big situations -

If you were going straight into the playoffs with a generic team next year - would you rather have Lamar or Flacco? 

if your answer is Lamar, it’s because we don’t really believe in clutch right? Or, at least, we still believe in the better QB. 

If your answer is Flacco, well I wouldnt really be prepared for that so I’ll just say you’re wrong lol. 

TBH, Flacco has never been on teams as talented as the 2019 or 2023 Ravens, and he's led teams less talented to deep playoff runs. The answer is probably tougher than you'd think.

[AngusMcFife]

Just now, BroncoSojia said:

TBH, Flacco has never been on teams as talented as the 2019 or 2023 Ravens, and he's led teams less talented to deep playoff runs. The answer is probably tougher than you'd think.

I'd strongly disagree with that. The 2008-2012 Ravens were stacked. Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Marshall Yanda, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata are all HOF calibre players (maybe Ngata won't get there). How many HOF players are surrounding Lamar? 

The 2019/2023 Ravens were good because Lamar Jackson was on the team. The 2023 Defense was excellent but I would take the 2008-2012 defense over them due to their veteran leadership and intelligence.

Look at how Flacco performed in the playoffs. This is his stat line for a 33-14 W in Foxboro vs. Brady and Belichick in 2009:

4/10, 39 yards, 1 INT, 6 rush for 5 yards.

Would the 2019/2023 Ravens win with that statline from Lamar? Flacco was carried to many playoff victories before his great 2012 run. Can't say the same for Lamar.

[BroncoSojia]

13 hours ago, Soggust said:

I don't follow basketball so it's hard to give you a fair answer, but I'd assume I'd lean towards small samples and good competition (being playoffs) as my default go-tos in most convos lol

There are very few players in NBA history that have put up the type of numbers Harden has in the regular season throughout his career, (although some of those numbers is a product of today's NBA) and have had the huge drop off he's had in the postseason. Part of it is teams playing him different and the refs not calling the same amount of fouls as they do in the regular reason, but that alone doesn't explain why he's so bad in the playoffs. 

It's the same thing with Clayton Kershaw in baseball.

[BroncoSojia]

19 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I'd strongly disagree with that. The 2008-2012 Ravens were stacked. Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Marshall Yanda, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata are all HOF calibre players (maybe Ngata won't get there). How many HOF players are surrounding Lamar? 

The 2019/2023 Ravens were good because Lamar Jackson was on the team. The 2023 Defense was excellent but I would take the 2008-2012 defense over them due to their veteran leadership and intelligence.

Look at how Flacco performed in the playoffs. This is his stat line for a 33-14 W in Foxboro vs. Brady and Belichick in 2009:

4/10, 39 yards, 1 INT, 6 rush for 5 yards.

Would the 2019/2023 Ravens win with that statline from Lamar? Flacco was carried to many playoff victories before his great 2012 run. Can't say the same for Lamar.

I see your point about the 2008-11 Ravens defense. However, the defense of the 2012 Ravens team that Flacco led to the Superbowl was pretty average. Flacco also played a great game in the 2011 AFCCG against the Pats, and his 2014 playoff run was really impressive. Factoring offense, defense, and special teams, I don't think Flacco has ever played on a team as talented as the 2023 Ravens. So do I believe prime Flacco could've won that game against the Chiefs? Yes I do.

[AngusMcFife]

20 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

I see your point about the 2008-11 Ravens defense. However, the defense of the 2012 Ravens team that Flacco led to the Superbowl was pretty average.

The 2012 defense was missing or dealing with injury recovery from Ray Lewis, Ngata, and Suggs for long stretches of the regular season but were fully healthy for the playoffs. 

Quote

Flacco also played a great game in the 2011 AFCCG against the Pats, and his 2014 playoff run was really impressive. Factoring offense, defense, and special teams, I don't think Flacco has ever played on a team as talented as the 2023 Ravens. So do I believe prime Flacco could've won that game against the Chiefs? Yes I do.

Which aspects of the 2023 Ravens offense do you think is so talented? Seems like they have about an average O-line, above average TEs, average WRs (with no true WR1), and below average RBs. The second best player after Lamar is probably C Linderbaum, who is good but undersized. 

If were playing the swap game, if you sub Lamar for Flacco from 2008-2012, the Ravens are probably going from 9-12 wins to 14-15 wins in the regular season. 16-0 would be in play. You are subbing a MVP QB for for an average QB. 

[BroncoSojia]

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

The 2012 defense was missing or dealing with injury recovery from Ray Lewis, Ngata, and Suggs for long stretches of the regular season but were fully healthy for the playoffs. 

Which aspects of the 2023 Ravens offense do you think is so talented? Seems like they have about an average O-line, above average TEs, average WRs (with no true WR1), and below average RBs. The second best player after Lamar is probably C Linderbaum, who is good but undersized. 

By most rankings, the Ravens had a top 7 offensive line this year. Their WRs were above average, they have a top 3 TE duo, and their running game were tops in the league this year. I know a lot of that was due to Lamar, but they didn't have scrubs running the ball.

If were playing the swap game, if you sub Lamar for Flacco from 2008-2012, the Ravens are probably going from 9-12 wins to 14-15 wins in the regular season. 16-0 would be in play. You are subbing a MVP QB for for an average QB. 

I don't think Lamar deserved MVP this year, but I don't want to argue about it. The current iteration of the Ravens is built around Lamar to maximize his unique skillset, so I don't know how dropping him into the 2008-12 version of the Ravens would go over. Even if they did have better regular season success, I don't believe the team would fair better in the postseason with Lamar over Flacco.

In bold

Edited February 4 by BroncoSojia

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

4 hours ago, Soggust said:

All strong points. 

But let me ask you this as someone who is legitimately concerned about Lamar in big situations -

If you were going straight into the playoffs with a generic team next year - would you rather have Lamar or Flacco? 

if your answer is Lamar, it’s because we don’t really believe in clutch right? Or, at least, we still believe in the better QB. 

If your answer is Flacco, well I wouldnt really be prepared for that so I’ll just say you’re wrong lol. 

If it's Flacco right now I'm obviously still taking Lamar. We saw Joe this year in the playoffs and it wasn't pretty. Flacco in his prime had this ability to just elevate his game when it mattered. I always joked that you had to carry Flacco to the playoffs, but once the playoffs rolled around Flacco would carry you.

Lamar, for whatever reason, doesn't have that ability to elevate his game when the pressure is on especially in games where he didn't start out hot in the first place. I believe he puts too much mental pressure on himself and when things go a little south, unless he uses his legs he ends up making boneheaded mistakes with his arm.