Browns expected to trade for Jarvis Landry

[chris00cm]

11 minutes ago, ACO said:

They on the books for this season. $16 million. That is nothing to their cap. Maybe they will play out the season and if he doesn't work he can try again next season. This is not a loss for the Browns even with the two picks. Not like they don't have 12543535 of them.

I cannot stand this logic. I'm not just picking on you, but a lot have said something like this for reasoning of this trade:

"They have like a 10000 million dollars, who cares?!?!?"

"They have 1561561 draft picks, who cares?!?!"

Wasting capital is always bad. I don't care how well the previous regime set you up.

[Broncofan]

My issues with this move are 2-fold:

1.  GM Dorsey has shown he's willing to overpay to get a vet with name value, but whose relative difference is questionable.  Remember he offered 2.1 for Alex Smith and that bid created the market where WAS had to give up Kendall Fuller AND a 3rd (yuck) for him.    If there is no bidding war that high, a 4.1 pick alone would have been a W for MIA.   As MIA was stuck in having to deal with him, unless CHI was offering a 3rd, there was no reason to go this high - especially since MIA had to clear space before the start of free agency.   MIA was under the gun, not CLE.    Which leads me to...

2. Landry at 14M+ vs. the other WR's - personally, I'd rather commit 12M to ARob, and go for the different WR type.   Landry's a great slot WR underneath - but that's what he is.   And he's gotten a lot of work when they've been playing from behind.   Don't get me wrong, he's a really good player.  But a 14M+ WR?  Man, give me a guy who beats cover guys, and is a RZ beast (yes, he was better this year, but is it a surge in skills, or just random variance?  I suspect we'll find out soon enough).    Now, it's fair to say that CLE wouldn't be alone in bidding for a ARob, or a Watkins - I just don't think this was a move they had to make, priority-wise, and then pay more than top dollar.

It's not a franchise killer because CLE has 100M of cap space - but the final thought I have is that Dorsey's MO from KC was that he was a very good drafter - but didn't factor cap value or balance in team-building.  Sashi Brown has given him a cushion to work with, but that only lasts so long.  What worries me more for CLE is that GM Dorsey doesn't look to be any different in how he builds a team.  Given Hue Jackson's comments on a rookie not starting, I expect them to shell out midlevel starter money for AJ McCarron, probably for more than 1 guaranteed year (that's the issue I'll have) - and also spend a 1.1 or 1.4 pick on QB.    Which again...is not a good allocation of resources, unless you think that kind of move helps you win now.    Which while I think CLE is headed the right way (and moreso under old GM Brown, whereas Hue should have been the one to go, but what's done is done), isn't likely for 2018.  A 6-10 to 8-8 season is an amazing result - but it's nowhere near the playoffs.  

Dorsey's style of team-building where pick-and salary-value-be-damned won't hurt them for a couple of years - but only because of the work GM Brown did.   That also means with Brown gone, the likelihood CLE will keep cap health and draft pick wealth going is very low, given what we see from how Dorsey operates.    IMO it will catch up a lot sooner than ppl think if Dorsey keeps overvaluing the market on the guys he wants.

 

[JBURGE]

Just now, ACO said:

If I were Kirk I would be in Minny. 

Well you're not, but he will be in Minny anyway

[ACO]

Just now, chris00cm said:

I cannot stand this logic. I'm not just picking on you, but a lot have said something like this for reasoning of this trade:

"They have like a 10000 million dollars, who cares?!?!?"

"They have 1561561 draft picks, who cares?!?!"

Wasting capital is always bad. I don't care how well the previous regime set you up.

Except you see it as a waste. I don't. He is a decent player that can help them and in the grand scheme they not losing much picking up his contract. 

[ACO]

1 minute ago, JBURGE25 said:

Well you're not, but he will be in Minny anyway

I'm not Kirk? *mind blown*

[chris00cm]

2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

My issues with this move are 2-fold:

1.  GM Dorsey has shown he's willing to overpay to get a vet with name value, but whose relative difference is questionable.  Remember he offered 2.1 for Alex Smith and that bid created the market where WAS had to give up Kendall Fuller AND a 3rd (yuck) for him.    If there is no bidding war that high, a 4.1 pick alone would have been a W for MIA.   As MIA was stuck in having to deal with him, unless CHI was offering a 3rd, there was no reason to go this high - especially since MIA had to clear space before the start of free agency.   MIA was under the gun, not CLE.    Which leads me to...

2. Landry at 14M+ vs. the other WR's - personally, I'd rather commit 12M to ARob, and go for the different WR type.   Landry's a great slot WR underneath - but that's what he is.   And he's gotten a lot of work when they've been playing from behind.   Don't get me wrong, he's a really good player.  But a 14M+ WR?  Man, give me a guy who beats cover guys, and is a RZ beast (yes, he was better this year, but is it a surge in skills, or just random variance?  I suspect we'll find out soon enough).    Now, it's fair to say that CLE wouldn't be alone in bidding for a ARob, or a Watkins - I just don't think this was a move they had to make, priority-wise, and then pay more than top dollar.

It's not a franchise killer because CLE has 100M of cap space - but the final thought I have is that Dorsey's MO from KC was that he was a very good drafter - but didn't factor cap value or balance in team-building.  Sashi Brown has given him a cushion to work with, but that only lasts so long.  What worries me more for CLE is that GM Dorsey doesn't look to be any different in how he builds a team.  Given Hue Jackson's comments on a rookie not starting, I expect them to shell out midlevel starter money for AJ McCarron, probably for more than 1 guaranteed year (that's the issue I'll have) - and also spend a 1.1 or 1.4 pick on QB.    Which again...is not a good allocation of resources, unless you think that kind of move helps you win now.    Which I think CLE is headed the right way (and moreso under old GM Brown, whereas Hue should have been the one to go, but what's done is done).  

Dorsey's style of team-building where pick-and salary-value-be-damned won't hurt them for a couple of years - but only because of the work GM Brown did.   IMO it will catch up a lot sooner than ppl think if Dorsey keeps overvaluing the market on the guys he wants.

 

Applaud you for this post. 

[dawgdish]

2 minutes ago, chris00cm said:

I cannot stand this logic. I'm not just picking on you, but a lot have said something like this for reasoning of this trade:

"They have like a 10000 million dollars, who cares?!?!?"

"They have 1561561 draft picks, who cares?!?!"

Wasting capital is always bad. I don't care how well the previous regime set you up.

The think is, the Browns locker room is already so young, and they have a slew of draft picks coming their way this year that they really do need a few more proven veteran starters, mentors, and locker room presences, and they need to use cap space just to get to the minimum. Is he a world class WR? No. But in a weak FA class, a move or two like this will not compromise or cripple the Browns or what Sashi did, and should get them on the road to respectability.

[DawgX]

2 minutes ago, chris00cm said:

I cannot stand this logic. I'm not just picking on you, but a lot have said something like this for reasoning of this trade:

"They have like a 10000 million dollars, who cares?!?!?"

"They have 1561561 draft picks, who cares?!?!"

Wasting capital is always bad. I don't care how well the previous regime set you up.

Again, if they made a bunch of moves like this, I'd agree. But when you're a team that's been as bad as the Browns have been, you're going to sometimes have to overpay players. That's just the reality of the situation, unfortunately. And one of the benefits of collecting so much draft capital in recent years is the ability to utilize them in trades like this while still retaining plenty of draft picks. Obviously building through the draft is the best way to go about it, but teams do need some proven vets.

[Broncofan]

14 minutes ago, DawgX said:

Again, if they made a bunch of moves like this, I'd agree. But when you're a team that's been as bad as the Browns have been, you're going to sometimes have to overpay players. That's just the reality of the situation, unfortunately. And one of the benefits of collecting so much draft capital in recent years is the ability to utilize them in trades like this while still retaining plenty of draft picks. Obviously building through the draft is the best way to go about it, but teams do need some proven vets.

That's fair, if it's a trend-breaker.  The part that's worrisome is we know Dorsey offered 2.1 for Alex Smith..and now this.  And we know from his KC days he created cap hell in trying to win now there.   MIA was the team in a barrel, and they had to get under the cap before March 16th.   Given that end-of-3rd 2019 comp pick is more like a late 4th for the current year, even 4.1 plus another pick is a big W for MIA.   Paying the extra value isn't a huge problem by itself, and if it's to make a splash, I get that - but Dorsey's history says this is who he is...all the time (but he is a good drafter, I'll give him that, his strength for sure).   Now, if it comes out that the 2018 CLE pick is a 4.1 or later (and that the 2019 one isn't a 3rd or better), then at least you can say that CLE only offered similar value to MIA's comp-pick scenario, and didn't get squeezed - when MIA is the team that was in the position to get squeezed.   

Again, Sashi Brown has given him a TON of flexibility - so there's no harm for about 2 seasons.   But you ideally want Dorsey to show some valuation, and not have to continually overpay.  That will catch up very soon.   Frankly, the idea of paying for McCarron AND drafting a QB at 1.1 or 1.4, which has a lot of confirmation from beat reporters, is an example of the "we have tons of space, let's not worry about value".    Which makes sense if you were trying to get the QBOTF and still contend for 2018...but man, that's a stretch.  That's still speculation, though, and we don't know the pick return, so let's see how these unfold.
 

[Lilseb93]

I would love to get out of Suh's contract somehow. The worst position to be in is being bad or mediocre with terrible cap management. 

[Eagles23]

I've always felt Landry was limited by the system/play calling in Miami. So many bubble screens. What if he breaks out even more when given the opportunity to run a route more than five yards upfield? 

[TheKillerNacho]

Jarvis will be a good player for the Browns, and will be good for a young Qb who needs a reliable option. With the cap they have, I really like this move for them.

[chris00cm]

1 minute ago, dawgdish said:

The think is, the Browns locker room is already so young, and they have a slew of draft picks coming their way this year that they really do need a few more proven veteran starters, mentors, and locker room presences, and they need to use cap space just to get to the minimum. Is he a world class WR? No. But in a weak FA class, a move or two like this will not compromise or cripple the Browns or what Sashi did, and should get them on the road to respectability.

 

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

Again, if they made a bunch of moves like this, I'd agree. But when you're a team that's been as bad as the Browns have been, you're going to sometimes have to overpay players. That's just the reality of the situation, unfortunately. And one of the benefits of collecting so much draft capital in recent years is the ability to utilize them in trades like this while still retaining plenty of draft picks. Obviously building through the draft is the best way to go about it, but teams do need some proven vets.

Respect both point of views. I've always been the smallest Landry advocate (on the entire forum it seems), so I'm the last person you'll want to listen to for an opinion. People like Landry and that's fine. Just knowing how Sashi Brown did things, I know he would have NEVER signed off on this move. I just worry for what was a bright future for this organization. I was hoping Paul DePodesta and the rest of the Brown's staff that still remains would have an influence on John Dorsey, but this is a classic John Dorsey move. The Chiefs were lucky enough to rid him before their situation become a hot mess (although they have had the worst cap situation in the league the last few seasons), and I just did not want to see him make the same mistakes in Cleveland.

[chris00cm]

4 minutes ago, Lilseb93 said:

I would love to get out of Suh's contract somehow. The worst position to be in is being bad or mediocre with terrible cap management. 

I've been amazed how many bad contracts they have taken on the last few seasons. They have become the NFL's contract dumpter (Eagles and Rams mainly taking advantage). A shame they will be forced to release the second best DT in the league for financial reasons.

[Packerraymond]

29 minutes ago, chris00cm said:

No no no no no no no. Trust me, we already have this kind of worthless receiver in Cooper Kupp.

Reason I am so invested in this move is because I LOVED how the Browns were building this franchise from the ground. A dynasty in the making. And are going to ruin it this off-season.

I'm not trying to sound rude, but are you being serious?

They totally wasted having 3 first round picks taking a position less defensive player and a TE in the first. The last regime was building another dud, now they have half the Packers old regime in there.

Now they get a guy who's going to be a safety valve for a young franchise QB and you act like they should just give up.

This was a decent move for Cleveland.