Dak - Grown Man

[quiller]

We just should give this thread up

one side thinks Dak is a a very serviceable NFL level starting QB who has a lot  to learn still like almost every other young QB in the history of the game one who might never be one of the top 5 or even 10 QB in the game but yet still has the skills to win any game including the super bowl 

other side we are winning despite our QB and Dak does not deserve to be a starting QB in this league and should anyone point out that Dak is not our main problem with the offense then We blindly think Dak has ZERO faults and is the best QB in the game

oh side note I would not put Mahomes as the best player in KC and would come close to putting Mariota as best on his though that is debatable I guess    

I also vehemently disagree with the statement that Dak is not an accurate thrower.   There is a a huge difference between being accurate with the ball and not having timing down with a few receivers and unwilling to throw the ball in risky spots and making an occasional bad pass like the second interception of the last game due to mechanical errors that don’t always show up.   The first interception was not an inaccurate pass it was right on target it just was a pass that shouldn’t have been thrown in  HINDSIGHT as Dak didn’t do a good job of not zoning in on Cooper which allowed the other CB to drop off coverage 

I am just sorry spin it how ever you want you can not set the franchise record for consecutive completed passes in a row with out being accurate with your pass   Dak has a ton of problems as a NFL passer he struggles reading complicated defenses and reading the defense as the play develops and his pocket awareness needs work all typical of a young QB -/- and for some reason he and Gallup are not on the same page as yet 

[CAPJ]

8 hours ago, resilient part 2 said:

Ok I am so late its hard to play catch up. But basically you are saying Dallas is winning mainly due to defense and Zeke but minimize what Dak has done to "just enough and barely enough to win."

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about with you and your Anti-Dak posse. Dak has played good to exceptional since getting Coop. He has delivered at a high rate in the most important moments. Led this team to a 5 game winning streak, all while still not having a competent coaching staff. 

Even if Dak/Dallas start off slow or make early mistakes, HE DOES NOT FALTER!!!! but rather bounces back stronger than ever.  

The saying is"the glass is half full"(positive thinkers)or the "glass is half empty"(pessimistic thinkers) but I swear with some of you guys it's like "the glass is 1/4 empty instead of 3/4 full.

I think the easiest way to answer the debate. 

Knowing what you know right now, are you comfortable paying Dak $25-$30 Million a year and potentially losing 1 of the following: Dlaw, Coop, Zeke, or Byron? Also restricting our ability to have cap flexibility in the future?

Dak is the type of QB that needs to have the right pieces around him. You cant give him all the pieces he needs while paying him that type of money.

[quiller]

I know this is going to be an interesting situation but we have TWO more years after this one to PAY Dak or Elliot and yes there has been no better back then Elliot during his three years but ask yourself this also the way he is being used and the way he runs how many years will Elliot last. If history is any indication I would say 4-5 at the max.  And is how Pittsburg handles the second best back in the league any indication on what Dallas is going to do with Elliot.  

I see Dak at the 22-24 range.   But if anyone has read all my posts they know my stance it is way way harder finding a QB even at Dak level then finding a good RB maybe not at Elliot’s level but a very very good one.   Just saying 

[Rtnldave]

I will say this about Dak, like it or not if we win just 1 more game he will have led us to the playoffs twice in 3 years. Had it not been for that ridiculous suspension last year, it would have been 3 for 3. And before you say he needs Elliott to win, just remember the triplets of the 90's and their record when E. Smith was holding out. Just coming off a SB blow out over the Bills that team went 0-2 to start the season. JJ broke open the wallet, paid E. Smith and they won 7 straight en route to their 2nd SB victory.

Even with all of their talent, they couldn't win a game without the guy the offense was built thru.

Just like this offense.

[DaBoys]

3 hours ago, Rtnldave said:

I will say this about Dak, like it or not if we win just 1 more game he will have led us to the playoffs twice in 3 years. Had it not been for that ridiculous suspension last year, it would have been 3 for 3. And before you say he needs Elliott to win, just remember the triplets of the 90's and their record when E. Smith was holding out. Just coming off a SB blow out over the Bills that team went 0-2 to start the season. JJ broke open the wallet, paid E. Smith and they won 7 straight en route to their 2nd SB victory.

Even with all of their talent, they couldn't win a game without the guy the offense was built thru.

Just like this offense.

Even the pro-Dak group admits that Dak needs to be on a great team to win games. He needs players around him. Therefore you can't pay him like he is a one man wrecking crew, and not be able to afford a team to put around him.

 

I would be okay with the Kirk Cousins route at this point. I know people say Washington fumbled that situation but honestly, we should test paying Dak 25M for 1 year and see how that feels before we roll out 28M for 6 years.

 

Who feels better about the way they paid Kirk Cousins. The Vikings fans or Redskins fans? Obviously it's a no win situation for both teams, but I'd rather be in Washingtons shoes than be stuck with Kirk at $84M

[plan9misfit]

Just now, DaBoys said:

Even the pro-Dak group admits that Dak needs to be on a great team to win games. He needs players around him. Therefore you can't pay him like he is a one man wrecking crew, and not be able to afford a team to put around him.

 

I would be okay with the Kirk Cousins route at this point. I know people say Washington fumbled that situation but honestly, we should test paying Dak 25M / year and see how that feels before we roll out 28M for 6 years.

$25M a year is too much. He’s not that good. 

[DaBoys]

4 minutes ago, plan9misfit said:

$25M a year is too much. He’s not that good. 

I agree. But whatever the 1st year Tag is for a QB.... I'd rather pay it for one year, than be locked in to paying potentially more per year for over a half decade.

And honestly we shouldn't be discussing contracts with him until after next season.

[DaBoys]

Russell Wilson signed a 4 year deal after his rookie contract that has hit the Cap like this:

18.5

14.6

23.7 (this year)

25.2

 

 

That's not terribleeee..... it would keep Dak under 20 for 3 more seasons after this one.

But has it crippled Seattle from being able to keep guys?

 

[The_Slamman]

I know this is going to be hard for a lot of people to hear... even though it’s true.  The cowboys have a below average NFL offense.  We are 20thin the NFL in YPG and 23rd in scoring.  We have already committed to paying Smith ($13.5M per year for the next 5 years), Martin ($15M per year for the next 6 years), Frederick ($11M per year for the next 5 years), and Collins ($7.9M in 2018 and $7.5 in 2019).  Cooper will be an UFA in 2020.  Zeke will be an UFA in 2021.  And Dak will also be an UFA in 2020.  The current martet rate for Zeke is about $15M per year.  The current market rate for Cooper is $17-19M per year.  We are talking about $83M per year dedidicated to our elite players on offense.  Now if we pay Dak market rate, we are talking about approximately $113M per year.  And that’s not taking into account players like Gallup, Williams, swaim, Jarwin, Smith, FB, etc or any backups.  In reality it’s going to be closer to $125M per year.  

 

Now here is the gut punch... we would be dedicating about 70%+ of our salary cap to a below average NFL offense.  

 

And, we all know that it truly has been the defense of the Cowboys that has been elite this year.  

 

My point is this... if we sign Dak, we need to be prepared to give up on some elite players on offense.  We’ve seen Dak without Cooper and it was really bad.  We’ve seen him without Zeke and it was bad.  And people have been griping about OL all year despite the fact that sites like PFF still have us rated as a top 10 OL.  Do you guys think the OL will be better by replacing smith and Collins with rookies or cheap FAs?

[Matts4313]

18 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

Russell Wilson signed a 4 year deal after his rookie contract that has hit the Cap like this:

18.5

14.6

23.7 (this year)

25.2

 

 

That's not terribleeee..... it would keep Dak under 20 for 3 more seasons after this one.

But has it crippled Seattle from being able to keep guys?

 

Wilson signed that contract in *2015* and it averaged $22m/yr

 

The QB franchise tag is going to be about $25m/yr..... Which is where the negotiations will start. 

[The_Slamman]

19 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

Russell Wilson signed a 4 year deal after his rookie contract that has hit the Cap like this:

18.5

14.6

23.7 (this year)

25.2

 

 

That's not terribleeee..... it would keep Dak under 20 for 3 more seasons after this one.

But has it crippled Seattle from being able to keep guys?

 

Yes.  With limited exception (Thomas and Wagner), Seattle has lost almost every good player from its SB teams.  Now they are losing Thomas.  They had to completely rebuild the OL and DL.

[The_Slamman]

5 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Wilson signed that contract in *2015* and it averaged $22m/yr

 

The QB franchise tag is going to be about $25m/yr..... Which is where the negotiations will start. 

This year, Blake Bortles signed a 3 yr/$54M contract or $18M per year.  That’s where the contract should start and end.

[Matts4313]

5 minutes ago, The_Slamman said:

My point is this... if we sign Dak, we need to be prepared to give up on some elite players on offense.  We’ve seen Dak without Cooper and it was really bad.  We’ve seen him without Zeke and it was bad.  And people have been griping about OL all year despite the fact that sites like PFF still have us rated as a top 10 OL.  Do you guys think the OL will be better by replacing smith and Collins with rookies or cheap FAs?

 

1. The offense has been below average, with Scott Linehan at OC and our highest paid players (Fredrick, Smith, Dez, Romo) not living up to the cap hit due to injuries/not being on the team. 

2. The most key part to Dak playing well is the OL imo. Its been awful since Smiths injury last year. 

3. Zeke at $15m/year better be a short team commitment. 

4. Our offense has been better with Cooper. Pretty much every stat is up ~10-30%.... The only thing we havent been able to do is score in the redzone; refer back to point 1. 

[Matts4313]

10 minutes ago, The_Slamman said:

Yes.  With limited exception (Thomas and Wagner), Seattle has lost almost every good player from its SB teams.  Now they are losing Thomas.  They had to completely rebuild the OL and DL.

A lot of them due to age and injury. But thats regular football, teams transition 30% a year.... 

7 minutes ago, The_Slamman said:

This year, Blake Bortles signed a 3 yr/$54M contract or $18M per year.  That’s where the contract should start and end.

Bortles is a much, much worse QB.  Thats a silly comp. 

[MightyMouse07]

On 12/10/2018 at 6:25 PM, Matts4313 said:

Through First Three Seasons:

Dak 30-15 10,122 Yards 79 TOTD 24 INT

Big Ben 25-11 8,519 58 TOTD 43 INT

Brady 34-12 10,227 71 TOTD 38 INT

P. Manning 26-22 12,287 88 TOTD 58 INT 

^^^^ From twitter

Rule change happened in 2004 with illegal contact being called more frequently and added.

So that was Brady's 4th year starting. Peyton's 6th year starting and Big Ben had just begun then. 

The one thing I'd add is that offenses have changed a lot. The college game has leaked into the NFL and we see a lot more about short quick passes that help keep INT numbers down for many QBs.