Week 5 GDT - Green Bay (2-1-1) @ Detroit (1-3)

[Norm]

Just now, Kepler said:

******* nerds ruin everything.....

I mean, it's true... Freaking Eggheads.

What's Williams WAR this year with RISP at Wrigley

[Norm]

3 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

You forgot the part where McCarthy sucks for using Williams at all.

One game the Packers website should let fans vote on all the play calls just to see what happens. They wouldn't use antiquated routes or running backs. We'd win by 500

[Fl0nkerton]

1 minute ago, Norm said:

I mean, it's true... Freaking Eggheads.

What's Williams WAR this year with RISP at Wrigley

It all comes down to pad angle and exit velocity.

[Packerraymond]

Just now, Norm said:

One game the Packers website should let fans vote on all the play calls just to see what happens. They wouldn't use antiquated routes or running backs. We'd win by 500

40 picks plays, 40 runs to Jones.

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

I'm just wanting to use Williams less at what he's bad at (holding the football with his hands while the play is active) and more at what he's good at (protecting the passer, occupying a LB in coverage to free up better players, being a cog in a passing offense)

The threat of a decoy only happens if another team is actually concerned with that player.  If you're not a threat to run the ball with Jamaal Williams, he's going to go unaccounted for by the defense.  He's averaged 3.6 YPC and 0 fumbles in 200 career rushing attempts.  There's no doubt that Aaron Jones is the more explosive back, but to try and mitigate what Jamaal Williams can do in order to prop up Aaron Jones isn't a strong argument.

[skibrett15]

Here's the only valid argument for Williams right now as far as using him to run the football:

"The coaching staff doesn't know how to use Williams." 

They see a "power back".  They are old school football guys, so they run power schemes, isolation with an H-Back, up the middle runs from under center, pistol, or any way to really give him a head of steam.  They run him on 1st and 10 when it's obvious they are going to run the ball.  They run it from heavier sets than we use Jones, so the boxes are more congested.

 

If they ran Williams in the same situations as Jones, against lighter boxes (though not necessarily better number advantages - 6D vs 5 blockers compared to 7D vs 6 blockers) and gave him more space to operate, Williams would have increased efficiency.  If they ran him more out of shotgun on outside zone run plays, the plays where Jones excels, Williams would have more success. 

Our O-Line is a much better outside zone run team because it allows Linsley and Bakh to be used as athletic run blockers rather than middling power run blockers.  Our Wide receivers Adams and Allison are solid blockers on the outside, and Jimmy can block the DB who often covers him even if he's considered "bad" as a blocker for the "TE" position that he doesn't really play.

 

So, Williams is used in the wrong, highly inefficient way.  It's not really the player which is the problem, but rather the offensive philosophy and play designs which doom him to be the mediocre, replacement level sap with the ball that he appears to your average ball-watching fan.

[Malfatron]

2 hours ago, Leader said:

Its called execution. Just execute and we'll be fine.
IMMO

fify

[Norm]

1 minute ago, Packerraymond said:

40 picks plays, 40 runs to Jones.

40 OPIs and three Jones injuries.

 

[Packerraymond]

1 minute ago, Norm said:

40 OPIs and three Jones injuries.

 

Well the refs suck and fire our training and S&C staff!

[Leader]

My goodness.
I feel like I'm back in Biology Lab and we're all dissecting a frog.
The problem is - we've been dissecting this frog to the point that theres no frog left to dissect - but we keep cutting and slicing away at the slop that used to be a frog.
Bury the frog. Its time to let the frog go.


 

[Norm]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

Well the refs suck and fire our training and S&C staff!

Pretty much lol. I still laugh when we tried to run those pick plays and kept getting called. Good times. 

[Norm]

1 minute ago, Leader said:

My goodness.
I feel like I'm back in Biology Lab and we're all dissecting a frog.
The problem is - we've been dissecting this frog to the point that theres no frog left to dissect - but we keep cutting and slicing away at the slop that used to be a frog.
Bury the frog. Its time to let the frog go.


 

Cut Williams??! Haha

There was a comment on Reddit with a bunch of upvotes that said "I'd cut Williams just so Mike can't use him anymore." It's like, well that's dumb. 

[Fl0nkerton]

5 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

Here's the only valid argument for Williams right now as far as using him to run the football:

"The coaching staff doesn't know how to use Williams." 

They see a "power back".  They are old school football guys, so they run power schemes, isolation with an H-Back, up the middle runs from under center, pistol, or any way to really give him a head of steam.  They run him on 1st and 10 when it's obvious they are going to run the ball.  They run it from heavier sets than we use Jones, so the boxes are more congested.

 

If they ran Williams in the same situations as Jones, against lighter boxes (though not necessarily better number advantages - 6D vs 5 blockers compared to 7D vs 6 blockers) and gave him more space to operate, Williams would have increased efficiency.  If they ran him more out of shotgun on outside zone run plays, the plays where Jones excels, Williams would have more success. 

Our O-Line is a much better outside zone run team because it allows Linsley and Bakh to be used as athletic run blockers rather than middling power run blockers.  Our Wide receivers Adams and Allison are solid blockers on the outside, and Jimmy can block the DB who often covers him even if he's considered "bad" as a blocker for the "TE" position that he doesn't really play.

 

So, Williams is used in the wrong, highly inefficient way.  It's not really the player which is the problem, but rather the offensive philosophy and play designs which doom him to be the mediocre, replacement level sap with the ball that he appears to your average ball-watching fan.

So we're being dumb on purpose?

[SSG]

14 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Jones had 2 obviously plus plays last week.

Maybe you can get to 3 on a close vision call or even 4 if you see an arm tackle as RB yardage, but Jones wasn't making yardage. Jones was getting yardage blocked for him. Jones isn't Kareem Hunt.

Hard telling if he's Kareem Hunt as he isn't given the opportunity.  He's got almost 300 fewer career touches/ targets than Hunt.  Aaron Jones has seen 15 touches in just 2 NFL games and he had elite production in both of them.  

I don't understand short selling Aaron Jones and trying to make a great game into a bad one.  

[skibrett15]

8 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

You forgot the part where McCarthy sucks for using Williams at all.

getting there ^^^^^

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

The threat of a decoy only happens if another team is actually concerned with that player.  If you're not a threat to run the ball with Jamaal Williams, he's going to go unaccounted for by the defense.  He's averaged 3.6 YPC and 0 fumbles in 200 career rushing attempts.  There's no doubt that Aaron Jones is the more explosive back, but to try and mitigate what Jamaal Williams can do in order to prop up Aaron Jones isn't a strong argument.

The threat of a decoy... is that where we're at with Williams?  You're worried that a guy who takes 28 snaps and gets the ball on 11 of those plays isn't a viable decoy.

Do you actually believe that a defense is going to abandon its scheme if Jamaal Williams is out there?  Defenses are out there covering Joe Flacco with CBs and Safeties, and they are gonna completely ignore Jamaal Williams in coverage.  I don't think this argument has much weight.

 

My angle isn't Jones here.  He can probably take a 20-30% increase in snaps, maybe 2-3 more carries/targets.  Nothing that really moves the needle.  Maybe Montgomery has another 5 snaps or so from Williams.  My angle is that Williams should be on the bench or pass protecting with the occasional curve ball run thrown in there to keep them honest from a numbers in the box perspective.