MVP Race

[Breesus mode]

50 minutes ago, Duluther said:

Nah, Brees shouldn’t have won either of those years.

2011 yes, 2009 is a no dawg.

[Mid Iowa]

22 minutes ago, jaa1025 said:

There difference between these instances and this year is that Mahomes is having a MUCH better season than Brees or any of his peers statistically. It's not even close. If the Chiefs win, which I believe is very important for his MVP prospects, they will finish with the #1 seed in the AFC. He will have carried a team with a historically bad defense, average to below average oline, banged up WR core, Kareem Huntless team to the #1 seed. If the Chiefs even have a mediocre defense they are likely undefeated. He likely finishes 5k+ yards, 50+ TDs. Only Manning has thrown for that. Brady had 4800 and 50TD. 

I have a bit of a disagreement.
Mahomes has 16 turnovers to Brees' 6. That also carries twice as many losses.

Don't get me wrong, Mahomes is beyond impressive. We're talking 2 different types of play, and 2 different outcomes.
So we need some definition on "better", let alone "MUCH better". 

Regarding the WR core, have you seen what Brees is working with? Michael Thomas, and a bunch of.....other guys. No clear #2 receiver. So that argument is kinda gone. The Kareem Hunt argument is only good for 2 games, and the Chiefs have gone 2&2 without him, so maybe he's just more important that you're giving him credit.

[Asciimo]

3 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

I have a bit of a disagreement.
Mahomes has 16 turnovers to Brees' 6. That also carries twice as many losses.

Don't get me wrong, Mahomes is beyond impressive. We're talking 2 different types of play, and 2 different outcomes.
So we need some definition on "better", let alone "MUCH better". 

mahomes has been put in a situation where he has to win the game on the last drive several times this year. he has to hold onto the ball longer, and teams know what he's about to do. that has a big part in the increased turnovers. saints were pummeling teams all year, so its easy to be safe.

[Mid Iowa]

2 minutes ago, Asciimo said:

mahomes has been put in a situation where he has to win the game on the last drive several times this year. he has to hold onto the ball longer, and teams know what he's about to do. that has a big part in the increased turnovers. saints were pummeling teams all year, so its easy to be safe.

That's why the QB plays the whole game, not just the final few minutes.

Look at the Saints first few weeks, and their last few weeks. Same argument, different outcome

Also, I edited my last comment since you quoted it. I added another paragraph regarding what they're working with.

[Mid Iowa]

3 minutes ago, Asciimo said:

mahomes has been put in a situation where he has to win the game on the last drive several times this year. he has to hold onto the ball longer, and teams know what he's about to do. that has a big part in the increased turnovers. saints were pummeling teams all year, so its easy to be safe.

I think the difference is Mahomes was put in this situation by his defense, where Brees was in this situation because of his defense at the beginning of the year, and his receiving corps/o-line health the last 3-4 weeks.

[SotanKing]

Brees had 3 games on road where he had stats like - 120 Yards/1 TD,/1 INT,  127 Yards/1 TD/1 INT,   203 Yards/0 TD/ 1 INT and Saints won 2 out of those 3 games. If Mahomes has games like this, then Chiefs are gonna get blown out. Brees has had an excellent year but if you are looking for Most valuable player, then I don't think any player has been close to Mahomes importance to Chiefs this season. This Chiefs defense is just disgusting, if not for Mahomes, this team wouldn't even reach playoffs..but now they might end up as No1 seed in AFC now.

[jaa1025]

4 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

I have a bit of a disagreement.
Mahomes has 16 turnovers to Brees' 6. That also carries twice as many losses.

Don't get me wrong, Mahomes is beyond impressive. We're talking 2 different types of play, and 2 different outcomes.
So we need some definition on "better", let alone "MUCH better". 

Regarding the WR core, have you seen what Brees is working with? Michael Thomas, and a bunch of.....other guys. No clear #2 receiver. So that argument is kinda gone. The Kareem Hunt argument is only good for 2 games, and the Chiefs have gone 2&2 without him, so maybe he's just more important that you're giving him credit.

Obviously, it's opinion based and thats fine but in my opinion: 

50/11 and 5k yards + is much better than 32/6 and 4k yards (assuming Brees sits with the #1 locked up). Yes, I understand Brees will break his own completion percentage record but it's less and less impressive the more times he does it. Isn't this the 4th or 5th time he's broken his own record? It's the culmination of being a very accurate passer, seasoned veteran and the offense that he's in. Plus, he plays in a dome behind the best or one of the best pass blocking lines in football.

50 TD and 5K yards has only been done once in NFL history and Mahomes needs 184 yards and 2 TD's to get it. Only injury will prevent this from happening. 

The Saints are the #1 seed in the NFC. If the Chiefs beat the Raiders, then they will be the #1 seed in the AFC. While the Saints have the better record, I feel this becomes a wash. 

Brees plays in a dome. His toughest games have been at home. They play the schedule they get and it's no indication that this is a factor to voters but IMO, it should be. Mahomes went on the road in Pittsburgh and threw for 6 TD, went on the road in SD and threw 4 TD, went on the road in NE threw 4 TD including the go ahead TD in the 4th, went on the road in LA and threw 6 TDs including the go ahead in the 4th. 

Weapons are a wash. Michael Thomas is the best WR in football. They have the best receiving RB in football. The Chiefs have Hill, who's gimpy right now and Kelce. The Saints have the best pass blocking line in football, which is a huge advantage. You can get away with scrubs at the receiver position when you have that type of protection. The Chiefs line has been without their stud RG LDT for most of the season. Their primary backup RG is out for the season. They lost their center for the 4+ weeks. Their starting LG has been injured for a few weeks. Mahomes has faced a ton of interior pressure because of this. 

No, I don't think that Brees should be in the same conversation as Mahomes this season for MVP. He's belongs at top of the 2nd tier along with Donald, Luck, etc. If his name wasn't Brees and he hasn't won an MVP for his long successful career, I don't think he'd be pushed this hard honestly. It will ultimately be the reason he wins it this year.

 

 

Again, this is just my opinion.

 

[Bearerofnews]

8 hours ago, jaa1025 said:

The Reid coaching tree is enormous and so are the number of teams that run the same type of offense. Look no further than the Bears (HC Nagy) and the Eagles (HC Pederson) which are the two previous OC's under Reid in the past few years. Several teams run a wide open offensive system now. Nearly 60% of the offensive snaps over the past few years in the NFL have been 11 personnel groupings. (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR). Roughly 20% are 12 personnel groupings (1 RB, 2 TE, 2 WR) and 8% are 21 personnel groupings and 4% are 22 personnel (1 WR, 2 TE, 2 RB...most likely your goal line or 3rd and short offenses).The entire league has pretty much added spread concepts to their offenses by now. It's really changed over the past 10 years. 

And if you want to go further into how good Mahomes has been look no futher in this exact same offense being ran over the past 5 years under Reid with Alex Smith at QB. Even Smith's BEST year he didn't sniff anything Mahomes has done. Smith had 2 really bad years, 2 average years and 1 good year under Reid in this offense statistically. 

 

 

Outside of offensive sets, teams are not running the same system. They arent using all the shifts, movement, the different off balance alignments, reversals, jet sweeps, etc. If you look at agg% under Next Gen Stats that measures tight window throws, Mahomes isn't throwing in tight windows near the same rate as other top qbs. I have personally never seen someone have so many easy wide open throws. I dont know if voters will look at that. But i think its well known how diff this system looks from any this year and from KC last year. There has been strong variations to this system from last year. 

Something else voters will look at is the 0-4 in primetime games vs winning teams. They will see the opposing qb was able to do enough to win when their defense gave up 51, 40, 31 and 28. Yet Mahomes couldnt do enough with the #1 offense to when these shootouts, but these other qbs he played did.  I think if he gets 5000k and 50 and finishes #1 seed, he will win. If he loses to Oak, goes 5 seed and has a bad game in the process and doesn't break 5000 or 50, i think they will give it to Brees.

 

My proclamation of Mahomes getting the nod was prefaced by if he had 5000 yds and 50 tds.

[Chargers]

Mahomes needs 184 passing yards and 2 TDs to have a 5000 yard season and 50TDs. That's your MVP and I don't see anyone close, the better question should be will Mahomes be unanimous or will some MVP voters go with Brees. 

[Chiefer]

7 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

I have a bit of a disagreement.
Mahomes has 16 turnovers to Brees' 6. That also carries twice as many losses.

Don't get me wrong, Mahomes is beyond impressive. We're talking 2 different types of play, and 2 different outcomes.
So we need some definition on "better", let alone "MUCH better". 

Regarding the WR core, have you seen what Brees is working with? Michael Thomas, and a bunch of.....other guys. No clear #2 receiver. So that argument is kinda gone. The Kareem Hunt argument is only good for 2 games, and the Chiefs have gone 2&2 without him, so maybe he's just more important that you're giving him credit.

Well yeah you need a running game. Or at least talent at the RB position. Just ask Drew Brees about that.

Chiefs havent had a 2 for more than half the season. And that 2 wasn't that effective half the time because hes new to the offense.

Were getting used to the backups now, DW has over 100 this past game. Its just that defense is godawful. Wed be undefeated, or close to it, if the Chiefs had the Saints defense.

 

[lancerman]

Mahomes is winning MVP

[DJB86]

Drew Brees leads the NFL in QB rating (115.7), completion percentage (74.4), game-winning drives (7) & fourth-quarter comebacks (6). He is 6-1 against teams with winning records. And most important, his team has the best record in the NFL: 13-2.

[tyler735]

24 minutes ago, DJB86 said:

Drew Brees leads the NFL in QB rating (115.7), completion percentage (74.4), game-winning drives (7) & fourth-quarter comebacks (6). He is 6-1 against teams with winning records. And most important, his team has the best record in the NFL: 13-2.

This is why I wouldn't be shocked if he wins it. Too much weight is put on wins when it comes to comparing QB's in the NFL

[Jlowe22]

8 hours ago, Asciimo said:

mahomes has been put in a situation where he has to win the game on the last drive several times this year. he has to hold onto the ball longer, and teams know what he's about to do. that has a big part in the increased turnovers. saints were pummeling teams all year, so its easy to be safe.

Saints haven't been pummeling teams all year, they pummeled a few teams midseason.  Brees has had to turn it on late in the game on several occasions.  Browns, Atlanta, Ravens, Rams, Steelers would be losses if Brees hadn't scored late in the fourth.

[showtime]

6 hours ago, upriser7 said:

Brees had 3 games on road where he had stats like - 120 Yards/1 TD,/1 INT,  127 Yards/1 TD/1 INT,   203 Yards/0 TD/ 1 INT and Saints won 2 out of those 3 games. If Mahomes has games like this, then Chiefs are gonna get blown out. Brees has had an excellent year but if you are looking for Most valuable player, then I don't think any player has been close to Mahomes importance to Chiefs this season. This Chiefs defense is just disgusting, if not for Mahomes, this team wouldn't even reach playoffs..but now they might end up as No1 seed in AFC now.

I agree.  I think Mahomes should win the MVP over Drew Brees.  I feel like if Brees wins it over him, it'll be partly a 'lifetime achievement award' type of deal.