Forge Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, DawgX said: lol He's not wrong. Bottom 10 in completion percentage, 11th in td%, 25th in INT%, 12th in yard per attempt, 17th in yards per game, 19th in passer rating, 14th in adjusted net yards / attempt. I mean, that's very average relative to his non rookie peers as a quarterback. That doesn't take anything away from Baker or the year that he had, but relative to other quarterbacks, that's a pretty average standing overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, ET80 said: Not sure if I agree with this. Mayfield had the ball on every single play he was on the field (unless there was an unusual amount of direct snap plays). just the one cleveland special i believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, wackywabbit said: I wish I could see your reaction when you look up the stats because you clearly don't remember 2012 My face is still that of one Harry Dunn's. Baker started 13 games. I don't know if you knew that. Also, I believe you said that Baker didn't even have CLOSE to the best rookie season by a QB in some time. So he wouldn't even have to beat the guys you listed...he would just need to be "close." If breaking all of the TD passing records of the guys you listed with 3 less games isn't close for you, then there is no reason to attempt to engage in intelligent conversation with you any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackywabbit Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, DawgX said: lol https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2018/passing.htm Make your case then. You can just limit it to passing to make it easier, as Baker added nothing as a runner even compared to other pocket passers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, mistakey said: just the one cleveland special i believe That play Hue invented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackywabbit Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said: Also, I believe you said that Baker didn't even have CLOSE to the best rookie season by a QB in some time. So he wouldn't even have to beat the guys you listed...he would just need to be "close." If breaking all of the TD passing records of the guys you listed with 3 less games isn't close for you, then there is no reason to attempt to engage in intelligent conversation with you any longer. I take that to mean you looked it up and realized you were wrong. He's NOT even "close" to Cam's 4750 yard 35 TD season or RG3 and Wilson's efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 One interesting concept or thought when comparing positional value is that Baker is being measured against his peers at a position where players play much longer. Saying baker is QB10 in the NFL and Barkley is RB5 isn't apples to apples. Tom Brady was drafted in the same draft as Shaun Alexander and Jamal Lewis so it's not necessarily as simple as saying Barkley is a top 3 RB, Mayfield a top 15 or whatever. Not making an argument off of that, but it's still important to consider when the best QBs drafted in the last 20 years are still playing the position and a lot of times are doing so at a high level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Forge said: He's not wrong. Bottom 10 in completion percentage, 11th in td%, 25th in INT%, 12th in yard per attempt, 17th in yards per game, 19th in passer rating, 14th in adjusted net yards / attempt. I mean, that's very average relative to his non rookie peers as a quarterback. That doesn't take anything away from Baker or the year that he had, but relative to other quarterbacks, that's a pretty average standing overall. Also, threw the 11th most TDs despite not playing the first 2.5 games, 14th in AY/A, 7th in sack percentage, tied for fifth for # of fourth quarter comebacks, tied for fifth in game winning drives. I'd say he was above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, wackywabbit said: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2018/passing.htm Make your case then. You can just limit it to passing to make it easier, as Baker added nothing as a runner even compared to other pocket passers. I just did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackywabbit Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, DawgX said: I just did. The only stat that you could find that's top 10 is sack percentage. I mean, I do think QBs play a part in that but... come on man... Average and you know it. Again you can make the case that being average right away as a QB is more impressive and certainly more valuable than a great RB. But, there is not a single good case out there that Baker was more than an average 2018 QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, wackywabbit said: The only stat that you could find that's top 10 is sack percentage. I mean, I do think QBs play a part in that but... come on man... You said he was average at best. 32 teams in the league, so 16th would be average. And Baker plays a huge part in not taking sacks. His ability to move within and out of the pocket is one of his best attributes. Of course the offensive line plays a part in that, but you could say that other players have an impact on just about every QB statistic. And I was mistaken. He's actually tied for 3rd in number of game winning drives. Unless you think that's a meaningless statistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, DawgX said: Unless you think that's a meaningless statistic. It's fairly empty, yes. I mean, Mahomes had 2. It's situational dependent. Two guys, same exact stats, same exact team record. Player A goes into the 4th quarter trailing by 6 5 times, gets it done. Kudos to him. That's great. Give him the "he's clutch" moniker or whatever. Doesn't mean that he somehow gets a bump over player B who had his team up by 17 points 5 times heading into the 4th quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, DawgX said: Also, threw the 11th most TDs despite not playing the first 2.5 games, 14th in AY/A, 7th in sack percentage, tied for fifth for # of fourth quarter comebacks, tied for fifth in game winning drives. I'd say he was above average. I'd say he was average with some above average qualities. That being said (and this is important) I look at it from tiers. To me, quarterbacks 12 - 18 are all largely "average" unless there is a huge disparity in something. I'm not doing this line by line or anything. I would agree, that if I lined all of these guys up, he's higher than 16th. But he's probably around 13 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, Forge said: It's fairly empty, yes. I mean, Mahomes had 2. It's situational dependent. Two guys, same exact stats, same exact team record. Player A goes into the 4th quarter trailing by 6 5 times, gets it done. Kudos to him. That's great. Give him the "he's clutch" moniker or whatever. Doesn't mean that he somehow gets a bump over player B who had his team up by 17 points 5 times heading into the 4th quarter. DIdn't say it was an extremely important statistic, but I don't view it as being empty or meaningless either. Agree with the rest of your point, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I think statistically, for the entire year, Baker had an average year. That’s not even a slight for a rookie imo. However his play after ridding himself of Hue/Haley and their ineptitude was significantly better than average. The last half of the season there weren’t a lot of QB’s who outplayed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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