Thomas5737 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I don't think the voters will take into account perceived production for any player. Some may, but odds are they just look at production. Whichever they find more impressive will get their vote. I don't know if they will get enamored with 2k total yards or the rookie passing TD record or just base it on what they saw, assuming they watched every game every rookie played, which seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, ET80 said: The Texans played both Baker Mayfield and Saquan Barkley this season - based on those up close views, I'm picking Barkley. I'll acknowledge that one game vs a common opponent isn't the most scientific way to measure this, but when you're this close in an argument, it could tip the scales... Mayfield had a dreadful first half vs the Texans D, tossing three picks (including one pick six). It should have been five picks, as Zach Cunningham dropped two early on - those drives led to punts. He got his game together in the 2nd half, made a great downfield throw to Antonio Calloway that should have been a score, but that first half was a disasterous bit of football, put that game away very early. (This was post Hue, BTW). As games vs Luck and Foles have illustrated, you can throw all over the Texans secondary - but Baker was really hemmed up. Saquan looked every bit the franchise runner vs the Texans, chopping through the front seven with ease and putting up over 100 YFS and a score. The Texans D had no answer to Barkley until late when th Giants were simply working the clock. The Texans had some stellar performances against Zeke, stopped the Washington run game, the Titans run game, so they can stop the run.. except for Barkley. Again - not the most scientific view, but I'll take it for what it is worth. Understandable. If Callaway doesn't fumble it is an 8 point game (assuming they make the PAT) so I don't believe the game was really put away but they took their foot off of the gas offensively, the Browns couldn't stop them in the first half and Baker did pressure himself trying to keep up. If you compare the Panthers/Falcons games you'd go Baker. The TB/HOU games you go Barkley. I think the only fair way to do this is head to head in the preseason and even though Barkley had a 39 yard run to start the game Baker was the star of that game. I jest, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, buno67 said: But where was the defense in the first 2.5 games? Offense for the Browns looked like Garbage with Tyrod. Heck the Browns were even losing to the Jets with Tyrod. Browns went through a lot of injuries at WR, hence why Perriman was brought mid way through the year after being cut by two teams and the starting RB being trade halfway through the year and replacing the starting LT with Robinson who is trying to resurrect his bust of a career. Oh yeah and had a new HC and OC appointed mid year cause of the garbage feuding between Hue and Haley. Baker ability at QB greatly improved the talent around him. Go read the first two game threads for the browns and read the complaining about the offense in general. Not like Baker was taking over a decent offense. Took over a offense struggling greatly. By the last quarter of the season, had the browns one of the best DVOA (top4/5 I believe) offense over those last couple weeks Baker had an amazing rookie season. Barkley just had a better one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Let’s not overthink this, Baker had a great rookie campaign but Barkleys year was otherworldly for a rookie RB. It’s Barkley. Even saw nfl.com mention Lamar smh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 32 minutes ago, minutemancl said: Extrapolating numbers is one of the first things they tell you not to do in any statistics 101 course. Mathematically, it is horrible practice. Ehhh there's always sampling. What he's doing is bordering on cherry-picking though. While it's relevant his first coach sucked and he played better with a competent coach, it shouldn't be ignored that they played some lesser pass defenses under Kitchens and you can't just assume Baker would put up those numbers of 16 games. When evaluating Baker its fair to mention he only got 13.5 games and was absolutely stunted by Hue Jackson. That being said, what's to say those reasons can't be the reason he doesn't win? It's all fun to discuss woulda coulda shoulda, but we have to evaluate on what actually happened and not make excuses. I think Barkley deserves OROY, but Baker had an outstanding season and will likely win plenty of hardware in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, minutemancl said: Extrapolating numbers is one of the first things they tell you not to do in any statistics 101 course. Mathematically, it is horrible practice. If I cant Extrapolate numbers, how can I properly troll in here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 54 minutes ago, BayRaider said: Let’s not overthink this, Baker had a great rookie campaign but Barkleys year was otherworldly for a rookie RB. It’s Barkley. Even saw nfl.com mention Lamar smh. bakers was otherworldly for a rookie qb considering he set the record for touchdown passes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, minutemancl said: Extrapolating numbers is one of the first things they tell you not to do in any statistics 101 course. Mathematically, it is horrible practice. This is exactly where I was going with my Lamar extrapolations earlier. This is just so much smarter and more concise. Kudos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said: Understandable. If Callaway doesn't fumble it is an 8 point game (assuming they make the PAT) so I don't believe the game was really put away but they took their foot off of the gas offensively, the Browns couldn't stop them in the first half and Baker did pressure himself trying to keep up. If you compare the Panthers/Falcons games you'd go Baker. The TB/HOU games you go Barkley. I think the only fair way to do this is head to head in the preseason and even though Barkley had a 39 yard run to start the game Baker was the star of that game. I jest, of course. To be honest, I'm perfectly fine with either. It's a coin toss, this would be a fine year to issue co-OROYs. (AFC and NFC, so it works). Could go co-DROYs, too. Darius Leonard and Leighton Vander Esch were both money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, ET80 said: To be honest, I'm perfectly fine with either. It's a coin toss, this would be a fine year to issue co-OROYs. (AFC and NFC, so it works). Could go co-DROYs, too. Darius Leonard and Leighton Vander Esch were both money. I am too, both are deserving in their own right. Interesting to compare their seasons since it is at different positions. If I thought the OROY would be Baker's highlight I would probably want it more but I don't that will be the case. I just want the season to start already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: I am too, both are deserving in their own right. Interesting to compare their seasons since it is at different positions. If I thought the OROY would be Baker's highlight I would probably want it more but I don't that will be the case. I just want the season to start already. You guys are in a good spot with him. I know the feeling, finding a franchise QB after years of Brian Hoyer and Brock Osweiler... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowcool Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I mean, no disrespect to Mayfield. He had a great rookie season, probably a good season overall especially in the latter half of the season. But Saquon Barkley had an elite season among all players. Even beyond the #'s, Barkley was the most electrifying talent all season (or at least right there with Mahomes/Hill) and he looked every bit the transcendent talent everyone thought he was at Penn State. I don't even see how this is a debate, really, unless we're trying to apply MVP criteria to OROY now and giving Mayfield the advantage because he plays QB. Otherwise if you stack the seasons up next to each other, I'm not sure how anyone could argue Mayfield was better at QB than Barkley was at RB. And LIS, that isn't anything against Mayfield. He amazed me this year, and tbh is much better than I thought he was. But he wasn't/isn't Barkley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackywabbit Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 54 minutes ago, mistakey said: bakers was otherworldly for a rookie qb considering he set the record for touchdown passes? The difference is that you don't need the "for a rookie" qualifier for Barkley. This is not really a debate about players, it's just a debate about what the award should be. Better player or more valuable player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 30 minutes ago, wackywabbit said: The difference is that you don't need the "for a rookie" qualifier for Barkley. This is not really a debate about players, it's just a debate about what the award should be. Better player or more valuable player. I think the thought process is Baker broke a record set by 2 likely HOF QBs. Rarely are rookie QBs as successful as Baker was. Barkley had a season you could argue is comparable to what Alvin Kamara or Kareem Hunt or Ezekiel Elliott have done the last couple years. He had an excellent year, but he touched the ball 350 times. His most impressive statistics are based on volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, mistakey said: bakers was otherworldly for a rookie qb considering he set the record for touchdown passes? He broke a rookie record, cool. Barkley was a Top 3 RB in the league and one of the greatest rookie RB seasons ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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