Mind Character Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Is there an argument to made that excludes bounty gate as to why Freddie Kitchens over Gregg Williams deserve the HC job? Freddie has done a fantastic job with the offense, but I'm not quite sure that people realize how our defense has been totally transformed this year and based on DVOA Defensive Efficiency is the 11th best defense in the NFL having been 3rd at it's highest peak this year. Now, the HC argument is more than just who's DVOA during their time is higher as a coordinator... there's more complexity and nuance to the decision obviously. Gregg has implemented competitive periods in every practice, he's had the players heighten their awareness to penalties and critical mistakes, and he has done a good job not feeding the media things to run with that interfere with the trust of the locker room. ------------------ Correction: I previously said "During Freddie's time as OC our Offensive efficiency has paced with Offenses between 14th and 20th while going against some of the worst DVOA Defensive Rating teams in the NFL. Even still, Freddie's flow in play-calling and situational awareness have been great." @LETSGOBROWNIES LGB informed me I looked at the wrong DVOA values ... as here suggest that week 9 on we've had the 4th highest non-weight adjusted DVOA Offensive Efficiency Rating under Freddie. ----------------- With all that said, I'm not sure that there is a case to be made as to why Freddie should get the job over Gregg. There are the following arguments I hear people make: 1.) Making Freddie the HC means we won't lose our OC to other HC openings down the road, thereby robbing Baker of an OC he has experience with. 2.) Gregg doesn't have the personality type that is sustainable as a HC in today's NFL -------- If a person can get beyond the bounty gate stuff, to me Gregg has more experience as a HC and multiple role coordinator... has had more success than Freddie as a Coordinator across multiple years, and most importantly has the programmatic vision to be at worst a solid if not unspectacular hire to shepherd us through the next 2 years or so while allowing us to keep continuity around Baker. I see why everyone is enamored with Freddie, but as a HC candidate I don't see him as being a better option than even a Mike McCarthy type based on my limited knowledge of Freddie's programmatic focus and experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie man Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 He doesn’t it’s the hope that it’ll be worth the risk But there’s no way he could’ve proved to be more deserving. He hasn’t done anything that could top winning games as a HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NudeTayne Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Programmatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, NudeTayne said: Programmatic Middle Finger ... Electronic Football ... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwibrown Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Its positional importance imo, Freddie and Baker seem to have good chemistry, it is the most important thing to roll over into next year. OC qb connection is more important than any other coaching structure in the nfl. I like that the offense is growing each week under freddie and that each week the offense is different. He is the most strategic I have ever seen an offensive coordinator since I have watched the browns. If we make gregg the coach early then someone may take freddie away from us as a hc. Personally I'd give greg a 1 year gig as hc, Freddie gets another year and let's see where we are at in 2019. If freddie is ready he is hc, because it is unlikely he stays OC for 3 years if he is really good, he will get poached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 58 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Is there an argument to made that excludes bounty gate as to why Freddie Kitchens over Gregg Williams deserve the HC job? Freddie has done a fantastic job with the offense, but I'm not quite sure that people realize how our defense has been totally transformed this year and based on DVOA Defensive Efficiency is the 11th best defense in the NFL having been 3rd at it's highest peak this year. Now, the HC argument is more than just who's DVOA during their time is higher as a coordinator... there's more complexity and nuance to the decision obviously. Gregg has implemented competitive periods in every practice, he's had the players heighten their awareness to penalties and critical mistakes, and he has done a good job not feeding the media things to run with that interfere with the trust of the locker room. During Freddie's time as OC our Offensive efficiency has paced with Offenses between 14th and 20th while going against some of the worst DVOA Defensive Rating teams in the NFL. Even still, Freddie's flow in play-calling and situational awareness have been great. With all that said, I'm not sure that there is a case to be made as to why Freddie should get the job over Gregg. ---------- There are the following arguments I hear people make: 1.) Making Freddie the HC means we won't lose our OC to other HC openings down the road, thereby robbing Baker of an OC he has experience with. 2.) Gregg doesn't have the personality type that is sustainable as a HC in today's NFL -------- If a person can get beyond the bounty gate stuff, to me Gregg has more experience as a HC and multiple role coordinator... has had more success than Freddie as a Coordinator across multiple years, and most importantly has the programmatic vision to be at worst a solid if not unspectacular hire to shepherd us through the next 2 years or so while allowing us to keep continuity around Baker. I see why everyone is enamored with Freddie, but as a HC candidate I don't see him as being a better option than even a Mike McCarthy type based on my limited knowledge of Freddie's programmatic focus and experience. i cant, i know of other people who cant. this guy shouldnt be a full time HC anywhere in the league ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 also the most important thing is to nurture baker mayfield. this is why hes more important than gregg. the players play tight offense underneath him, they seem to be gelling as a team and playing unselfish ball. the success of anthony lynn shows you dont have to be a OC for long to be a good HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 @Mind Character I think your DVOA numbers are off for Freddie. Our overall dvoa is as you describe, but that’s including Hue and Todd’s misunderstood and under appreciated contributions Since they were canned we are 4th in total offense DVOA and Baker is second behind only mahomes in passing DVOA https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2018/week-15-dvoa-ratings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 I personally don’t care about bounty gate. There’s a LOT of shady **** like that which goes on behind the scenes. It’s about what’s best for Baker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornbybrown Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 The argument for Freddie is based on fear of losing him. Not the best argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, hornbybrown said: The argument for Freddie is based on fear of losing him. Not the best argument whats the argument for gregg? The team got better on offense and the team started winning. his track record is marred by scandal and a bad showing in BUF. gregg goes somewhere that doesnt have a top flight QB and that dude aint winning **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 18 minutes ago, mistakey said: whats the argument for gregg? You just gonna ignore those frosted tips huh? you seeing this @sdrawkcab321? No respect for decades old fashion trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwibrown Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 29 minutes ago, mistakey said: whats the argument for gregg? The team got better on offense and the team started winning. his track record is marred by scandal and a bad showing in BUF. gregg goes somewhere that doesnt have a top flight QB and that dude aint winning **** Gregg is an average head coach, comparatively is a feast to what we have had. To me Gregg is a dumb Pete Carroll, his players feed of his positive vibes. Gregg to Freddie what Tyrod is to Freddie a seat warmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 54 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: @Mind Character I think your DVOA numbers are off for Freddie. Our overall dvoa is as you describe, but that’s including Hue and Todd’s misunderstood and under appreciated contributions Since they were canned we are 4th in total offense DVOA and Baker is second behind only mahomes in passing DVOA https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2018/week-15-dvoa-ratings "One other team that deserves mention for improvement, even though it's only been on one side of the ball: Cleveland. The Browns are 25th in offensive DVOA at -7.0% but they move up to 14th in weighted offensive DVOA at 1.8%. Since they fired head coach Hue Jackson and offensive coordinator Todd Haley before Week 9, the Browns rank fourth in the league with 18.2% offensive DVOA, behind the Chiefs, Chargers, and Steelers. Over that same period, only Patrick Mahomes (38.9%) has a higher passing DVOA than Baker Mayfield (36.0%)." I stand corrected. I Looked at the wrong values. Good stuff Todd Haley for president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 I care far more about keeping Freddie around in some capacity than Gregggggggggggggg. With that said, I put the odds of Greggg as HC 2019 way, way higher than Freddie staying around as HC. Most likely scenario I see happening is Dorsey goes and gets whatever HC he’s had in mind but convinced him to keep Freddie as his OC. I don’t really think there’s danger of the rest of the league looking at Freddie as a 2019 HC, so we’re good there I would think. I am at a point where I’m good not rocking the boat unless there’s a no-brainer big time HC out there. Keep Williams and Kitchens where they’re at. If 2019 takes a step backwards, go get who you want. I love Kitchens steering the offense and could the team have responded to Greggg better than they have, for the last half of the year? Keep things moving forward. At the end of the day though, I would much rather lose Williams than Kitchens. I just like how both have done their jobs. To me, the guy running the offense and the one overseeing the team are equally important roles, but different. Both have excelled at that this half of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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