Thoughts on Josh Allen

[Thelonebillsfan]

2 minutes ago, Starless said:

Yup. But Jackson is the one people talked about moving to WR.

We all know WHY that is. And it's something we can't talk about here so that's all I'll say.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

12 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said:

The Bills receivers did him no favours in regards to completion percentage. Not saying it would have made him a 65% passer, but the Bills were one of the leading teams in drops.

Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but they contradict what you’re saying.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232 

12 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said:

I'm not sure your second line is a fair assessment of Allen. Both the GB and Mia game he through a hailmary at the end of a half which got picked. Not really him making a bad decision.

It wasn’t really an assessment, just a statement of fact.  When forced to make plays with his arm, he turns it over.

12 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said:

Plus, it just makes sense that the more you throw the more likely you are to have turnovers, he was asked to win every game because of how bad the running game was.

For sure, but 30 attempts isn’t a huge number. It’s one thing to say “when you ask him to win a game with his arm, he’ll turn it over”.  It’s another to say “unless you protect him and only make him throw 15-20 times, he’s gonna turn it over”.  Right now he’s much more the latter than the former.

12 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said:

Allen is a godsend in comparison to Tyrod who would rather throw it away or take a sack on 4th down then risk an INT.

I can understand that, but being better than Tuhrod doesn’t mean he’s good.

12 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said:

Allen really isn't a QB that runs a lot. This year he finished 4th in attempts for QB's and he had at least 10 short yardage sneaks. A better running game from the RB's will limit his designed touches as well. 

I mean, he’s top 4 in the league, that’s kind of a lot.

Of course if they change their scheme and improve production at other positions his numbers will change, but I’m not sure why anyone would just assume that’s going to happen.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

19 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said:

I'm pretty sure everyone considered Josh Allen a project QB too. 

He most definitely was/is.

The question becomes how much do players develop their ability to throw accurately.  Historically the odds are against him, but it’s certainly possible.

[GSUeagles14]

i think he can be a cam newton type qb. i dont think you will ever be able to consistently rely on him to get it done when you NEED to pass but overall he should be a good qb. prior to carolina really starting to rely on short passes to cmac, newton has mainly had comp %s in the high 50's and people considered him a good starting qb. 

[Trentwannabe]

20 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

It wasn’t really an assessment, just a statement of fact.  When forced to make plays with his arm, he turns it over.

It's not a fact at all. Only one game all year did he turn it over while attempting a 4th quarter comeback or "making a play with his arm". He has 2 4th quarter comebacks against Jax and Detroit and a game winning drive against Tennessee.

20 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

For sure, but 30 attempts isn’t a huge number. It’s one thing to say “when you ask him to win a game with his arm, he’ll turn it over”.  It’s another to say “unless you protect him and only make him throw 15-20 times, he’s gonna turn it over”.  Right now he’s much more the latter than the former.

He really isn't though. Again, you're looking at his INT in a vacuum and assuming that because he threw it 30+ times and they lost he must have turned it over late. Its not the case except for the Jets game and as I think of it the Pats game where McCourty made a great play on a ball with 4 minutes left in a blowout.

 

20 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I mean, he’s top 4 in the league, that’s kind of a lot.

Would you consider Trubisky a running QB? He had 9 less attempts then Josh Allen.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just now, Trentwannabe said:

It's not a fact at all.

I was referring to the fact that he threw at least 2 picks every time he attempted 30 passes.  That’s the fact I was referring to.

Just now, Trentwannabe said:

Only one game all year did he turn it over while attempting a 4th quarter comeback or making a play with his arm. He has 2 4th quarter comebacks against Jax and Detroit and a game winning drive against Tennessee. 

Never debated any of this.

Just now, Trentwannabe said:

He really isn't though. Again, you're looking at his INT in a vacuum and assuming that because he threw it 30+ times and they lost he must have turned it over late. Its not the case except for the Jets game and as I think of it the Pats game where McCourty made a great play on a ball with 4 minutes left in a blowout.

Im not saying the picks happened at any particular time, just that they happened literally every time he attempted 30 passes.

He had 4 games this year where he attempted less than 20 passes, they were clearly protecting him (which they should).

Just now, Trentwannabe said:

Would you consider Trubisky a running QB? He had 9 less attempts then Josh Allen.

“Running QB”? No, because he can actually beat you with his arm.  I would consider him a mobile QB and I think the same things apply to him long term re: hits.

The less hits a player takes from the freaks on the defensive side of the ball the better.

I mean, you look at the guys who play the position at the highest level, and who have lengthy careers, they don’t run the ball and they don’t take hits. 

[SilverNBlackFan]

26 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

i think he can be a cam newton type qb. i dont think you will ever be able to consistently rely on him to get it done when you NEED to pass but overall he should be a good qb. prior to carolina really starting to rely on short passes to cmac, newton has mainly had comp %s in the high 50's and people considered him a good starting qb. 

Cam Newton is much more accurate than Allen is.

Allen will lead the league in INTs several times I guarantee it. Hes just not a natural passer. He just has a cannon

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

Mainly his arm. 

The same arm that's about as inaccurate as any I've ever seen? He has the same exact issues as Lamar Jackson, but Lamar Jackson has generational athleticism at QB. What does Josh Allen? Generational arm strength? I don't think so. Generational athleticism? Nope. Generational accuracy? Absolutely not. So what is it?!

1 hour ago, Trentwannabe said:

I'm pretty sure everyone considered Josh Allen a project QB too. 

Sure, and then they drafted him 7th overall after not making him try out at WR at the combine. Weird how that works.

[GSUeagles14]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

The same arm that's about as inaccurate as any I've ever seen? He has the same exact issues as Lamar Jackson, but Lamar Jackson has generational athleticism at QB. What does Josh Allen? Generational arm strength? I don't think so. Generational athleticism? Nope. Generational accuracy? Absolutely not. So what is it?!

Sure, and then they drafted him 7th overall after not making him try out at WR at the combine. Weird how that works.

allens arm talent is better than jacksons, and quite frankly allen is better equipped to hold up health wise when he scrambles which hes very capable of doing. Allen had near 600+ yards at 7 ypc, jackson had a sub 5 ypc. They both have the same accuracy issues but allens arm upside is higher, and hes already proven to be as dangerous with his feet. Why would this even be a question for you?

[GSUeagles14]

15 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

Cam Newton is much more accurate than Allen is.

Allen will lead the league in INTs several times I guarantee it. Hes just not a natural passer. He just has a cannon

newtons past comp %s say not... but since you guarentee things i guess we should all just agree?

[MWil23]

3 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said:

Nope. Baker's hands were the smallest of the group. He has solid arm strength but his size and small hands make me skeptical he can get I done in the elements. Basically, I'm saying although he's currently better than Allen, his ceiling isn't as high and I'm pretty sure after a few years we'll be saying Allen is clearly the better cold weather QB.

Colin Cowherd confirmed.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

12 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

allens arm talent is better than jacksons, and quite frankly allen is better equipped to hold up health wise when he scrambles which hes very capable of doing. Allen had near 600+ yards at 7 ypc, jackson had a sub 5 ypc. They both have the same accuracy issues but allens arm upside is higher, and hes already proven to be as dangerous with his feet. Why would this even be a question for you?

But what about him is generational, or special at all? I don't see Jay Cutler / Matt Stafford / Mike Vick / Joe Flacco arm strength. I don't see the playmaking ability that Baker or Lamar bring out of the pocket. I see basically Ryan Tannehill but a lot worse as a pocket passer. And yet people think his issues are somehow correctable but Lamar Jackson is a project QB who won't be able to throw from the pocket consistently?

[wackywabbit]

3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

But what about him is generational, or special at all? I don't see Jay Cutler / Matt Stafford / Mike Vick / Joe Flacco arm strength. I don't see the playmaking ability that Baker or Lamar bring out of the pocket. I see basically Ryan Tannehill but a lot worse as a pocket passer. And yet people think his issues are somehow correctable but Lamar Jackson is a project QB who won't be able to throw from the pocket consistently?

Josh Allen was always considered an amazing physical athlete pre-draft. Size, speed, arm strength are all top notch. I still think he has the highest upside of the whole draft class.

[GSUeagles14]

33 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

But what about him is generational, or special at all? I don't see Jay Cutler / Matt Stafford / Mike Vick / Joe Flacco arm strength. I don't see the playmaking ability that Baker or Lamar bring out of the pocket. I see basically Ryan Tannehill but a lot worse as a pocket passer. And yet people think his issues are somehow correctable but Lamar Jackson is a project QB who won't be able to throw from the pocket consistently?

Who cares about generational like thats some sort of necessity to being a good qb? And whats the benefit of being a generational athlete at qb, you can gain yards with your feet? Allen did that pretty significantly better than Jackson in year 1, and rushing yardage at qb goes downhill with the quickness as you get older. Allen has a higher upside arm, i dont know if ive ever seen anyone even debate that jacksons could be better. again, they both have the same accuracy issue but theres a higher possible payout with allen.

 

as far as him not having a special arm, not even gonna debate it. youre just showing you cant be unbiased. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Who cares about generational like thats some sort of necessity to being a good qb? And whats the benefit of being a generational athlete at qb, you can gain yards with your feet? Allen did that pretty significantly better than Jackson in year 1, and rushing yardage at qb goes downhill with the quickness as you get older. Allen has a higher upside arm, i dont know if ive ever seen anyone even debate that jacksons could be better. again, they both have the same accuracy issue but theres a higher possible payout with allen.

 

as far as him not having a special arm, not even gonna debate it. youre just showing you cant be unbiased. 

Based...on....what?!? It's clearly not what he did in college, and it's clearly not what he's doing now.

And yeah, Allen scrambled on pass plays better than Jackson did because defenses clearly aren't trying to put spies on him or stop him - congratulations. The Ravens just finished the season with a rushing offense - revolving around Jackson's legs - that put up stats and consistent production not seen in the NFL since the 1930's while everyone screams that "any week now defenses will figure him out!".