Conference Championship Games

[Leader]

1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

I think the single biggest positive impact the game could see for officiating is having a "live" official in the booth that can both overrule and issue penalties via the multitude of camera angles we now have. It's archaic to expect old guys to run around and see everything the world's best athletes are doing at speeds above the capability refs possess.

How could that be done? How could that be.....integrated into the flow of the game?

The refs on the field dont call a penalty. However, the booth ref sees a replay indicating one may have occurred. Does he "buzz" the field at that point? Stopping play? Or does he wait till he sees at least one/two more replays to confirm it? In that time frame - whats happening on the field? Everybody's standing around wondering whats up? The play clock is probably already clicking down towards the next snap. At what point does that stop?

The refs on the field call a penalty: They begin the process of announcing the penalty, relocating the ball and LOS marker. OR - do they wait till the booth ref confirms they're right?

It would be a mess.

 

[incognito_man]

7 minutes ago, Leader said:

How could that be done? How could that be.....integrated into the flow of the game?

The refs on the field dont call a penalty. However, the booth ref sees a replay indicating one may have occurred. Does he "buzz" the field at that point? Stopping play? Or does he wait till he sees at least one/two more replays to confirm it? In that time frame - whats happening on the field? Everybody's standing around wondering whats up? The play clock is probably already clicking down towards the next snap. At what point does that stop?

The refs on the field call a penalty: They begin the process of announcing the penalty, relocating the ball and LOS marker. OR - do they wait till the booth ref confirms they're right?

It would be a mess.

 

Nah, he works at the same pace the infield refs do.

Home viewers can often see better in real time on the TV copy. 

A guy in a booth with 2-3 select angles and screens for any other occasionally important angle could make a decision in a matter of seconds. Live feed to the on-field ref. He could talk to him sooner than the back judge could on the field.

[Packerraymond]

11 hours ago, Leader said:

Each of the teams playing last weekend - every one of them - were the recipients of hundreds of judgement calls throughout the season. Calls which had bearing on the results of their regular season games - and afforded them opportunity to be in the playoffs - or not.

The public needs to chill (or lower) the "alarm and outrage" levels.

Unless they're willing to reduce a fast played / violent game to a replay infested, slow motion caricature of itself - the phrase "it happens" needs to enter into the dialog. Human error exists ALL OVER a football field. From those on the sidelines - to the players on the field - and yes - to the referees.

It happens.

 

It happens is not acceptable for that missed call. In fact it's flat out unacceptable to me that a call that would take a teams win percentage odds to 99.9% in a Championship game that was that blatantly obvious was missed. Why even play the season? The Dez call isn't comparable, Rodgers gets the ball with 4 mins left in that scenario. 3 knees, a TO with :02 left and a 21 yard FG to go to the SB. Everything the Saints worked for the entire season was wasted. "It happens" is probably the worst thing the league can say.

[Dubz41]

12 hours ago, KManX89 said:

The difference is, there shouldn't have been any more game to play. Had that play been flagged as it clearly should have, the Saints wind out the clock and kick a chip shot FG to win the game.

Whereas had the Bryant no-catch stood as a catch, Rodgers still would've had approx. a minute and a half left to move the ball down the field and score on a defense that hasn't stopped him all game, so it wouldn't have necessarily been over. 

These two calls aren't comparable. 

They are VERY comparable.  Brees and the Saints received the OT kickoff and had 10 minutes to matriculate the ball down the field.  What did they do? Choked. So now they turn around and complain.  They had a chance to run the clock down and kick a FG leaving the Rams very little time to try to tie it up, but Payton/Brees threw incomplete on first down and they were lucky the no-call wasn't intercepted.  Their defense still let the Rams drive for the tying FG.  C'mon, the Saints had plenty of opportunity to win the game and they **** the bed.  

There should be some tougher questions being asked of Payton's time management at the end of the game.

The Vikings fans claim it is all payback for the crap/calls the Saints got away with when they lost in OT to the Saints in the NFCCG.

 

[Shanedorf]

4 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

would take a teams win percentage odds to 99.9% in a Championship game

I wrote this elsewhere:

Gary Anderson was one of the more accurate and prolific kickers of his era and he didn't miss a single FG all season long. 100 % accurate
But he whiffed an "easy" 39 yarder in his home dome and cost the 15-1 vikes a chance to move on to the SB. We also saw Blair Walsh whiff a 27 yarder with a playoff game on the line. Crazy stuff happens all the time, that's why we watch. So no, you cannot draw a direct line to a Saints victory.

Remember that crazy end-of-the -game 3 lateral play by the Saints in their miraculous comeback vs the Jags ? And then John Carney whiffed the XP ?
That actually happened and the Saints lost, that was long before they moved the XP back. It was a 21 yard kick back in the day and he whiffed it

Your chances would have greatly improved with a proper PI call, but nothing is certain after that.
The NFL is a wicked mistress and if you're a fan long enough, you're gonna get kicked in the nuts

[Packerraymond]

7 hours ago, Dubz41 said:

They are VERY comparable.  Brees and the Saints received the OT kickoff and had 10 minutes to matriculate the ball down the field.  What did they do? Choked. So now they turn around and complain.  They had a chance to run the clock down and kick a FG leaving the Rams very little time to try to tie it up, but Payton/Brees threw incomplete on first down and they were lucky the no-call wasn't intercepted.  Their defense still let the Rams drive for the tying FG.  C'mon, the Saints had plenty of opportunity to win the game and they **** the bed.  

There should be some tougher questions being asked of Payton's time management at the end of the game.

The Vikings fans claim it is all payback for the crap/calls the Saints got away with when they lost in OT to the Saints in the NFCCG.

 

They are not comparable. LIS earlier, had Dez scored, I'm guessing with 4:34 left and up 3 you're looking at a win % chance somewhere in the 60-70% range and that doesn't look into the fact that Aaron Rodgers is the opposing QB. This penalty takes the Saints into the 99% percentage. It's make a 21 yard FG which I don't care what anyone says is something today's kicker does 999 times out of 1000.

Overtime is irrelevant, there should've been no overtime.

[Leader]

9 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

It happens is not acceptable for that missed call. In fact it's flat out unacceptable to me that a call that would take a teams win percentage odds to 99.9% in a Championship game that was that blatantly obvious was missed. Why even play the season? The Dez call isn't comparable, Rodgers gets the ball with 4 mins left in that scenario. 3 knees, a TO with :02 left and a 21 yard FG to go to the SB. Everything the Saints worked for the entire season was wasted. "It happens" is probably the worst thing the league can say.

?

I've not been thinking of the Dez call at all - but thanks for the memories / synopsis. I too think AR probably would have done good things and put us in position to win (or at least tie) the game. But you wanna know? Who knows? Nobody.

The thrust of my thinking (and I believe my written comments - although sometimes I dont express myself clearly) is that the season record of all the teams is made up of similar judgement calls - made / not made - which have bearing on them moving on - or not.

Narrowing the focus down......I think this "ALL UP IN ARMS!" drumbeat over this missed call - while consequential - should be offset by other calls - made / not made - in the same game that could/would have effected the end of game strategy. Everything comes as a whole. You cant dissect one bit alone and separate  and declare that bit determinative all by itself.

And lastly - judgement calls do in fact "happen" - the comment is correct.

What you need to decide is whether you want that aspect of the game removed entirely - cause you cant just to it in the last two minutes. Doesnt work that way. What happened earlier in the game has bearing on those last two minutes - so you've got to construct some holistic remedy that doesnt slow the game down to a crawl and nothing but a replay-fest.

 

 

 

[Leader]

9 hours ago, incognito_man said:

Nah, he works at the same pace the infield refs do. Home viewers can often see better in real time on the TV copy. A guy in a booth with 2-3 select angles and screens for any other occasionally important angle could make a decision in a matter of seconds. Live feed to the on-field ref. He could talk to him sooner than the back judge could on the field.

Okay. Respect the opinion - but this "works at the same pace as the on field refs" concept isnt accurate. If the in booth ref is going to see / review replays at the same disjointed pace that we as TV viewers have for years - its not gonna be a clear cut and direct process. You cant presume the in booth ref is going to see a determinative replay first. No questions asked - and as a consequence his/her involvement in the process will be hidden and seemless with the flow of the game.

Refs on the field see a penalty - throw a flag - and once the ball is dead, proceed to line things up, move the ball / yard markers and the teams move around accordingly. Now what? They gonna kind of pause - not do anything waiting on the buzz from up top? Last thing you want is the on field action taking place - then the buzz comes and everything needs to move back to where it began. Not what one would call "must see TV" - and for what purpose? To guarantee - no questions asked - that judgement calls are eradicated from the game? No possibility of error? I dont think its worth it.

As I've said elsewhere - errors in judgement are made all game - every game - all over the field - but a whole host of different players, coaches and refs in this process. It's all part of the mix.

 

[Packerraymond]

1 minute ago, Leader said:

?

I've not been thinking of the Dez call at all - but thanks for the memories / synopsis. I too think AR probably would have done good things and put us in position to win (or at least tie) the game. But you wanna know? Who knows? Nobody.

The thrust of my thinking (and I believe my written comments - although sometimes I dont express myself clearly) is that the season record of all the teams is made up of similar judgement calls - made / not made - which have bearing on them moving on - or not.

Narrowing the focus down......I think this "ALL UP IN ARMS!" drumbeat over this missed call - while consequential - should be offset by other calls - made / not made - in the same game that could/would have effected the end of game strategy. Everything comes as a whole. You cant dissect one bit alone and separate  and declare that bit determinative all by itself.

And lastly - judgement calls do in fact "happen" - the comment is correct.

What you need to decide is whether you want that aspect of the game removed entirely - cause you cant just to it in the last two minutes. Doesnt work that way. What happened earlier in the game has bearing on those last two minutes - so you've got to construct some holistic remedy that doesnt slow the game down to a crawl and nothing but a replay-fest.

 

 

 

This wasn't a judgement call. There's a difference between a bang-bang play or a facemask that no ref has a good angle to see, and the most blatant, out in the open DPI I've maybe ever seen.

[Kenrik]

I think the NFL needs to implement something similar to golf. Setup a marketing campaign to inforce that the NFL has become a gentlemans game. Have players flag themselves and WRs be honest about whether they caught, etc. I like it. 

[Leader]

19 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

This wasn't a judgement call. There's a difference between a bang-bang play or a facemask that no ref has a good angle to see, and the most blatant, out in the open DPI I've maybe ever seen.

Understood PR - and I'm not saying the refs didnt miss the call -- but it was a judgement call - that they blew - and you cant divorce that one call (or non call) from the list of other calls/no calls during the game - all of which cumulatively have bearing on end of game action.

Or rather - you can do it - by setting some arbitrary time deadline within which all flags are reviewed or some such - but thats nothing but TRYING to put a ribbon on something AFTER its packaged. Or conceptually put - inside the package is a game made up of countless judgement calls. You wanna say that because the last two minutes are "reviewable" and therefore it makes the entire package perfect........well, you can try to say (and sell) that - doesnt mean its accurate.

Add on - so you set up some "whole game" program where some finite number of plays are reviewable by the coaches. Fine. Now - how long you think before the drum is getting beaten to a pulp that ALL penalty calls should be reviewable? Not long IMO. Not long at all.

Is that the game you want?

Thats the decision to be made.

[squire12]

10 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

It happens is not acceptable for that missed call. In fact it's flat out unacceptable to me that a call that would take a teams win percentage odds to 99.9% in a Championship game that was that blatantly obvious was missed. Why even play the season? The Dez call isn't comparable, Rodgers gets the ball with 4 mins left in that scenario. 3 knees, a TO with :02 left and a 21 yard FG to go to the SB. Everything the Saints worked for the entire season was wasted. "It happens" is probably the worst thing the league can say.

Your stance seems to have switched from the in game reaction.  I thought you were in favor of penalties not deciding games?

[Packerraymond]

9 minutes ago, Leader said:

Understood PR - and I'm not saying the refs didnt miss the call -- but it was a judgement call - that they blew - and you cant divorce that one call (or non call) from the list of other calls/no calls during the game - all of which cumulatively have bearing on end of game action.

Or rather - you can do it - by setting some arbitrary time deadline within which all flags are reviewed or some such - but thats nothing but TRYING to put a ribbon on something AFTER its packaged. Or conceptually put - inside the package is a game made up of countless judgement calls. You wanna say that because the last two minutes are "reviewable" and therefore it makes the entire package perfect........well, you can try to say (and sell) that - doesnt mean its accurate.

Add on - so you set up some "whole game" program where some number of finite plays are reviewable by the coaches. Fine. Now - how long you think before the drumbeat if getting beaten to a pulp that ALL penalty calls should be reviewable? Not long IMO. Not long at all.

Is that the game you want?

Thats the decision to be made.

I like @incognito_man idea. I would add to it that the booth ref is the only one allowed to challenge a penalty. Coaching challenges will stay the same. 

They should buzz in just like college officials do. Their training would be important as we don't want to wreck game flow. I'd train them to seek out game impacting calls. If Jamaal Williams runs for 4 yards on 1st down in the 2nd Q, and it's clear Lane Taylor held, too bad. Non-impactful penalties as well, if we're in OT and a RB breaks off a 40 yard gain and when you look at the TV replay it's clear that the WR on the opposite side of the field accidentally hit the DBs facemask while blocking, no need to flip the result of the play for a penalty that had no bearing on the play.

The Saints DPI, the RTP on Chris Jones, the offsides on Dee Ford, Clay Matthews RTP vs Minnesota, penalty plays that directly impact the outcome of games should be able to be paused to look at. I don't want to give that responsibility to a coach, but put a trained official in each stadium in a booth and let him buzz down and communicate with the head official as they take a second look.

[Packerraymond]

16 minutes ago, squire12 said:

Your stance seems to have switched from the in game reaction.  I thought you were in favor of penalties not deciding games?

My stance was 100% me wanting to enjoy viewing more of a great football game on television.

It was brutal to watch and not see that call made, and if that happened to GB I don't know if I'd be able to even watch the SB I'd be so disgusted. Laughable and embarrassing for the league that call was missed.

As a fan with no rooting interest, great that I got to see the 2 best teams in the NFL play more football because of it, but that call has to be made. Enjoyment of the non-invested fan should be irrelevant in how the NFL proceeds, any NFL fan right now going into the new season has to be thinking, if my team has a storybook year, can I trust the refs not to blow my teams season in a similar way to how they screwed the Saints?

[Dubz41]

3 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

They are not comparable. LIS earlier, had Dez scored, I'm guessing with 4:34 left and up 3 you're looking at a win % chance somewhere in the 60-70% range and that doesn't look into the fact that Aaron Rodgers is the opposing QB. This penalty takes the Saints into the 99% percentage. It's make a 21 yard FG which I don't care what anyone says is something today's kicker does 999 times out of 1000.

Overtime is irrelevant, there should've been no overtime.

You just can't get off of the 'non-call'.  My point was that the Saints had opportunities to win the game anyway and they choked.  They made a time management mistake by throwing a pass on 1st down.  They kicked the go ahead FG and then allowed the Rams to drive for the tying FG.  Even with that- they won the toss in OT and choked.  You'll see more of this discussed by the media heads.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda.  It's over. Rams win. Saints choked.  Don't change the rules because Payton mismanaged the end of the game.