Lets Discuss All Things Wrestling - Even The T-Shirt Company AEW!

[FinneasGage]

on another note, from my previous post, when i say I got into TNA in 08 (and that's where i started with wrestling), that's because i went to middle school with Devon's kids. because of our last names, i sat next to terrence hughes in almost all my classes for those two years. dude would always talk about TNA and i'd pretend to know what he was talking about because it seemed cool. eventually i started actually watching. anyway i'm watching AEW Dark right now and this dude and his brother just had a match. pretty crazy to me. haven't talked to them since high school. 

[Troy Brown]

I don't really see it either. I think AEW gets plenty of fair criticism. The vast good outweighs the bad in AEW, and the vast bad outweighs the good in WWE. What are you referring to when you talk about that? @The LBC

[Troy Brown]

1 minute ago, FinneasGage said:

on another note, from my previous post, when i say I got into TNA in 08 (and that's where i started with wrestling), that's because i went to middle school with Devon's kids. because of our last names, i sat next to terrence hughes in almost all my classes for those two years. dude would always talk about TNA and i'd pretend to know what he was talking about because it seemed cool. eventually i started actually watching. anyway i'm watching AEW Dark right now and this dude and his brother just had a match. pretty crazy to me. haven't talked to them since high school. 

damn u young 

[Dr LBC]

43 minutes ago, FinneasGage said:

i stopped watching WWE because every promo seemed forced and bad to me. matches seemed slow 80% of the time on TV broadcasts. maybe i'm a mark and overlooking, but neither of those things are really big issues in AEW. i'm not really like a company-backer or anything. i watched mainly TNA from 08-12, ROH from 12-17, WWE/NXT from 17-19 and now mostly AEW since they debuted. i always see WWE fans with this narrative of "hypocrisy" and "if WWE did this, they'd be killed!!!" when the reality is like 75% of their show is filled with cringy stuff. i'm not being a hater, i don't care whatever people watch, but it's just weird when people always tie WWE back into AEW discussions when it's just such a better product at the moment. 

That's debatable.  Both are pretty bad.

[Deadpulse]

2 hours ago, The LBC said:

This is not me trying to defend WWE in any sense, but I've noticed that a lot, and I mean A LOT, of AEW fans are perfectly willing to ignore that they are guilty of some of the same things they were critical of WWE for doing, purely on the basis that it's AEW.  And sorry, but I call hypocrisy out when I see it.  If it's stupid when WWE does it, it's equally as stupid when AEW does it.

I would say that obviously there are some things that AEW whiffs on in similar fashion to WWE. However, I think the difference is that AEW does so many things the way critical fans want, IE; unscripted promos, almost no non-finishes, and long term storylines. With these big pluses under their belt, especially for those who had WWE fatigue, the stuff that WWE would get killed for just doesnt stick out and goes unnoticed. 

[Dr LBC]

40 minutes ago, Troy Brown said:

I don't really see it either. I think AEW gets plenty of fair criticism. The vast good outweighs the bad in AEW, and the vast bad outweighs the good in WWE. What are you referring to when you talk about that? @The LBC

One of the constant criticism I heard of WWE (and it's legit) is that guys do the same thing same match over and over again with little variety; if you've seen one Roman/Seth match, you've seen them all.  Same thing's happening in AEW.  Same  formulaic everyone's got signature moves that the opponent always kicks out of and 95% of matches don't end until one guy hits his finisher (and very few finishers are protected, even in spite of this).  Commentary is bad - in both companies.

And for all that people want to talk up "the wrestling being what matters" in AEW - the ringwork is illogical (which wouldn't matter if AEW hadn't billed itself as being a sport-based showcase), overtly clear that there's cooperation going on, and the no-sells are getting ridiculous.  I'll also continue to harp on the "heels and faces don't matter" narrative being BS.  Sure, it works if all you're interested in marketing to is the independent crowd, but you're not growing and not expanding if new viewers can't come in and get invested in the stories (because spotfests don't return viewership but once or twice, especially when EVERYBODY on the roster are doing the spots).  Folks can praise the spots all they want, but a number of these guys can't throw convincing working punches or hit the ropes well to save their lives.  AEW is 21st century ECW, which is I'm sure why the people that are huge fans of theirs love them, but there's a lot of time they come off like 2000's WCW, except with less polish.

[Troy Brown]

12 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

I would say that obviously there are some things that AEW whiffs on in similar fashion to WWE. However, I think the difference is that AEW does so many things the way critical fans want, IE; unscripted promos, almost no non-finishes, and long term storylines. With these big pluses under their belt, especially for those who had WWE fatigue, the stuff that WWE would get killed for just doesnt stick out and goes unnoticed. 

AEW also built up enough good will that fans are willing to be patient to see where things are going. Look at the most prominent storylines off the top of my head.... Jericho/Cody, Omega/Mox, MJF/Cody, Elite vs Inner Circle, Yb vs Page, Page vs Kenny, Yb/Lucha Bros, the Dark Order, Jericho/OC (I liked it at least)... were all long term stories that were paid off in a great way. Even some of their shorter stuff ended up with great payoffs: Best friends/Pnp, Cage/Mox, Mox/Kingston. I'm willing to forgive the things they're missing on when the vast majority they're hitting on is great. 

[Troy Brown]

3 minutes ago, The LBC said:

One of the constant criticism I heard of WWE (and it's legit) is that guys do the same thing same match over and over again with little variety; if you've seen one Roman/Seth match, you've seen them all.  Same thing's happening in AEW.  Same  formulaic everyone's got signature moves that the opponent always kicks out of and 95% of matches don't end until one guy hits his finisher (and very few finishers are protected, even in spite of this).  Commentary is bad - in both companies.

And for all that people want to talk up "the wrestling being what matters" in AEW - the ringwork is illogical (which wouldn't matter if AEW hadn't billed itself as being a sport-based showcase), overtly clear that there's cooperation going on, and the no-sells are getting ridiculous.  I'll also continue to harp on the "heels and faces don't matter" narrative being BS.  Sure, it works if all you're interested in marketing to is the independent crowd, but you're not growing and not expanding if new viewers can't come in and get invested in the stories (because spotfests don't return viewership but once or twice, especially when EVERYBODY on the roster are doing the spots).  Folks can praise the spots all they want, but a number of these guys can't throw convincing working punches or hit the ropes well to save their lives.  AEW is 21st century ECW, which is I'm sure why the people that are huge fans of theirs love them, but there's a lot of time they come off like 2000's WCW, except with less polish.

They aren't really advertising themselves with the "real sports feel" anymore. Mistake on their part to ever do that. JR certainly ruins the commentary for me, but I love Taz/Excalibur/Schiavone. Can't say I like anyone in WWE with how scripted the commentary feels. But agree with the matches and I made a similar comment earlier. Their PPV matches have to be really great given they rarely hold back on TV. But at the same time, they do 4 PPVs a year and reward their fans for watching weekly and makes Dynamite feel that much more important. 

21st century ECW? Come on. They're already locked into a major cable contract and TNT loves what they're doing. They didn't even make it a full year before covid derailed half of their plans and their viewership has been super loyal. Does it matter if they grow exponentially in the first year? I feel like people keep bringing up their growth like it matters at all. TNT loves them and it doesn't sound like they're going anywhere so does massive growth really mean that much? They're consistently one of the top rated cable programs weekly. 

[Deadpulse]

19 minutes ago, The LBC said:

Commentary is bad - in both companies.

I am praying beyond hope that Jericho and Excalibur are the commentary team in the near future. 

[Troy Brown]

3 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

I am praying beyond hope that Jericho and Excalibur are the commentary team in the near future. 

I gotta imagine they're just gonna let JR's contract expire, he's such a downer 

[Deadpulse]

2 minutes ago, Troy Brown said:

I gotta imagine they're just gonna let JR's contract expire, he's such a downer 

sometimes it's like he purposely puts down the product. Sometimes he isnt wrong, but my god its our job to point that out not his. 

[Dr LBC]

18 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

I am praying beyond hope that Jericho and Excalibur are the commentary team in the near future. 

I can't do Excalibur.  If they could get their hands on Kevin Kelly, they'd be golden pairing him with a different color guy, but Excalibur feels like he's trying to be Mike Tenay, but he references stuff that a lot of people have no idea what the hell he's talking about.  Just as a recent example, Don Callous (who I thought added something to the commentary team for the PPV, but obviously he's tied up with Impact currently) asked him why Omega has the nickname The Cleaner, what it means, and what's the deal with the brooms... and Excalibur just went into a long shpiel that had nothing to do with the question he was asked.  There are a number of guys that they could bring in who are recognizable faces without being blatant WWE ripoffs, but who add the credibility of having done the in-ring thing prior, as well.  Not saying this should be the guy, but as an example of someone a company has used in the past: DeAngelo Dinero.

Also, @Troy Brown, JR is a downer because, despite being the good employee and carrying water on-air and on-Twitter for the company, he agrees with the other guys from his era who have been responsible for booking and creative control as far as what's stupid and what isn't.  Good rule of thumb is that whenever you start seeing JR let his guard down and he's more JR, the person, as opposed to JR the character, that's because he's disinterested in what he's being asked to put over. One thing he's pointed out that is absolutely legit, and is something AEW definitely does worse the WWE (and that's hard to do), their referees might as well not be there; they have no authority, they don't seem to have any coherent rules they're there to enforce.  The referee exchange during the Bucks/FTR match was just plain sad - a referee trying to get a guy's tag team partner (and brother) to convince him to not use a chair, which was against the rules to begin with?  Give me a break.

[Deadpulse]

2 minutes ago, The LBC said:

I can't do Excalibur.  If they could get their hands on Kevin Kelly, they'd be golden pairing him with a different color guy, but Excalibur feels like he's trying to be Mike Tenay, but he references stuff that a lot of people have no idea what the hell he's talking about.  Just as a recent example, Don Callous (who I thought added something to the commentary team for the PPV, but obviously he's tied up with Impact currently) asked him why Omega has the nickname The Cleaner, what it means, and what's the deal with the brooms... and Excalibur just went into a long shpiel that had nothing to do with the question he was asked.  There are a number of guys that they could bring in who are recognizable faces without being blatant WWE ripoffs, but who add the credibility of having done the in-ring thing prior, as well.  Not saying this should be the guy, but as an example of someone a company has used in the past: DeAngelo Dinero.

Also, @Troy Brown, JR is a downer because, despite being the good employee and carrying water on-air and on-Twitter for the company, he agrees with the other guys from his era who have been responsible for booking and creative control as far as what's stupid and what isn't.  Good rule of thumb is that whenever you start seeing JR let his guard down and he's more JR, the person, as opposed to JR the character, that's because he's disinterested in what he's being asked to put over.

I see what your saying, but is it wrong of me to think that is EXACTLY why I want him paired with Jericho? It's a great thing to cut off and rail on him for pushing his heal role on commentary with the hardcores who tend to like when people are good heals. 

[Dr LBC]

1 minute ago, Deadpulse said:

I see what your saying, but is it wrong of me to think that is EXACTLY why I want him paired with Jericho? It's a great thing to cut off and rail on him for pushing his heal role on commentary with the hardcores who tend to like when people are good heals. 

Except Excalibur can't do PBP for crap.  I'm not a fan of 3-man commentary teams to begin with (I hate that WWE does them, it stilts the dynamic and makes it feel like each guy is just waiting for his turn to speak rather than a back-and-forth conversation between two people about what's going on the ring).  Certain things just don't need to be touched.  Boxing has kept standard two-man teams (with the occasional third guest commentator brought in for special/specific matches or "between rounds" in the case of Howard Lederer), MMA followed the same model.  Basketball does it.  Good football commentary teams do it (notice how most of the most strongly disliked commentators in football are the awkward 3rd wheels: Colinsworth, Booger, Dennis Miller).  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Troy Brown]

21 minutes ago, The LBC said:

 

Also, @Troy Brown, JR is a downer because, despite being the good employee and carrying water on-air and on-Twitter for the company, he agrees with the other guys from his era who have been responsible for booking and creative control as far as what's stupid and what isn't.  Good rule of thumb is that whenever you start seeing JR let his guard down and he's more JR, the person, as opposed to JR the character, that's because he's disinterested in what he's being asked to put over. One thing he's pointed out that is absolutely legit, and is something AEW definitely does worse the WWE (and that's hard to do), their referees might as well not be there; they have no authority, they don't seem to have any coherent rules they're there to enforce.  The referee exchange during the Bucks/FTR match was just plain sad - a referee trying to get a guy's tag team partner (and brother) to convince him to not use a chair, which was against the rules to begin with?  Give me a break.

Agreed, I wish the officials meant anything in wrestling. But it's really an industry wide issue, not just AEW, but certainly an AEW issue. But I do like that their referees feel more recognizable, like in the past with WWE or I guess also WCW. I think it adds to the product. I know why JR is a downer, but it's unprofessional and his weird sexist remarks are even worse. It's creepy and just like many others, his time in the industry has passed. 

I personally love Excalibur, those couple of months or whatever it was when he was gone was really noticeable. Agreed, though, I don't much care for 3 man commentary tables, and also loved Callis being there for Full Gear. Golden Boy did a great job last summer on his spots, too. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Troy Brown