babababa Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: If Cook is their best player the Vikings are in serious trouble. Well he's one of the best. And (ha ha) no...the Vikings are now a stronger running team going forward which fits their style of play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krauser Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 14 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: If Cook is their best player the Vikings are in serious trouble. Cook is the best player on the offense, the closest they’ve got to a top 5 player at his position in the league. Hunter and Smith are in that league on defense. The question of how valuable RBs are is a different question. The contract is about what I projected before the Covid effects on the cap: $50/4 and $63M/5 are basically the same deal with one more non-guaranteed year. The signing bonus ($15.5M) is higher than I expected, though the deal was going to be likely-to-be-earned through 2022 anyway. They’d have a $6.2M dead money hit to get out of the contract in 2023, which is a couple million higher than you’d like, but manageable. His AAV here is noticeably cheaper than other RB1 receiving threats like McCaffrey, Elliott and now Kamara. So I think Cook gave in on the AAV in order to get a higher bonus and a higher chance to play on the contract through 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 hour ago, TENINCH said: I know we need to pay Hunter but hes under contract so his contract can be negotiated/ extended after his current contract ends. Harris, Rudolph, and Reiff will be gone. That'll give us more money to play with. I'll be surprised if they actually lower the cap. Given the deals that teams have been handing out lately I tend to agree with you that the cap isn't going to be going down. If it goes down, it won't be anything like the ~$40M decline that has been expected based on some previous reporting. The teams know something that we do not. The RB franchise tag is likely going to be considerably higher than the ~$8.2M that was reported a few weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENINCH Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Purplepride323 said: Or Barr, Rudolph & Reiff. I’d much rather keep Harris than an underperforming Anthony Barr. I really hope Spielman and Brez now find a way to keep Ngakoue and Harris long-term. Rudolph and Barr are both on the decline and both have big contracts. So it’s best for the team to use that money for younger or better guys. Also I don’t know if we should bring Pierce back. If Stephen has a great year at Nose Tackle (which he is much better at than 3Tech) then I don’t see why we would need a $10 million/year NT. Oh me too. Ngakoue is more important to sign long term than keeping Barr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 I disagree that he is the best offensive player. O’Neill is the best player on offense, and is certainly a top 5 talent at his position. I’d also argue that Theilen and Cousins are better when you weigh availability. I don’t want to rehash the RB value thing again, but this just doesn’t make sense. For a team as cash strapped as the Vikings are. They seem to go against the grain of the modern team building, and have had only moderate at best post-season success. Cook will need to have near MVP level production in the first couple of years of this deal to make it worth it as the roster is currently constructed, imo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krauser Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 15 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: I disagree that he is the best offensive player. O’Neill is the best player on offense, and is certainly a top 5 talent at his position. I’d also argue that Theilen and Cousins are better when you weigh availability. O'Neill was barely a top 5 RT in the NFC last year (Lane Johnson, Ramczyk and Bulaga were better, and Collins and McGlinchey just as good). He's nowhere near an elite player at his position yet, especially if you include left tackles in the analysis. Cousins and Thielen are good but no one would argue they're the best in the league at anything. Cook could realistically lead the NFL in rushing yards and yards from scrimmage this year. There are backs who are just as good, but none that are clearly better. 21 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: I don’t want to rehash the RB value thing again, but this just doesn’t make sense. For a team as cash strapped as the Vikings are. They seem to go against the grain of the modern team building, and have had only moderate at best post-season success. As I keep saying, the hard part of roster building is finding talent, not cutting costs. The Moneyball problem (beating the Yankees with the A's) doesn't apply to the NFL, where teams have basically the same resources. Teams rarely if ever have to let high end players go because they literally can't afford them. The Vikings have invested high draft picks and/or premium contracts at every position aside from G and DT, and they'll have a chance to add a 1st round pick to one of those positions next year. The reason they've lacked success has to do with talent selection (eg, despite investing so many draft picks, they haven't been able to develop a good OL) and bad luck (Bridgewater's injury, among others), not overpaying the wrong players. This year's team won't rise or fall on letting Waynes go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Leading the league in rushing yards doesn’t mean being the best back. He’s got some serious holes in his game - receiving ability, versatility, and health at the top of the list. What is Cook clearly the best at? McCaffrey and Barkley are very clearly better backs. I get being excited and trying to justify this, but can you name a team in the last decade that paid a RB near top of market (top 5-6) money that has sustained success afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krauser Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: Leading the league in rushing yards doesn’t mean being the best back. He’s got some serious holes in his game - receiving ability, versatility, and health at the top of the list. What is Cook clearly the best at? Cook is probably the best outsize zone RB in the league, on a team that runs outside zone all the time. He's a very good receiver in the screen game. What are you talking about, the drops? In terms of versatility, he plays 3 downs and contributes in all phases including short yardage / goal line. You want him to be a slot receiver or something? I guess he's not a very good pass blocker. Quote McCaffrey and Barkley are very clearly better backs. I don't think there's a big gap there. In any case, it's closer between Cook and those 2 than O'Neill, Cousins and Thielen and the elite players at their positions. 13 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: can you name a team in the last decade that paid a RB near top of market (top 5-6) money that has sustained success afterward No. I wouldn't pay Cook that much if I was running the team. Just pointing out the reasons why they paid him: he's a top flight player at his position, the current face of the franchise and centrepiece of the offense, and the value (a top draft pick) of what they'd pay to replace him is at least as high as the cost of a long term deal. Edited September 12, 2020 by Krauser 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babababa Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, SemperFeist said: What Brandon Thorn said...I've felt that since the Vikings decided to lean on him last season -- and he provided (8th in carries) -- that they needed to work on a new contract out of respect. There's too much pounding at the position to expect Cook to carry at the same rate while being compensated as little as he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Krauser said: Cook is probably the best outsize zone RB in the league, on a team that runs outside zone all the time. He's a very good receiver in the screen game. What are you talking about, the drops? In terms of versatility, he plays 3 downs and contributes in all phases including short yardage / goal line. You want him to be a slot receiver or something? I guess he's not a very good pass blocker. I don't think there's a big gap there. In any case, it's closer between Cook and those 2 than O'Neill, Cousins and Thielen and the elite players at their positions. No. I wouldn't pay Cook that much if I was running the team. Just pointing out the reasons why they paid him: he's a top flight player at his position, the current face of the franchise and centrepiece of the offense, and the value (a top draft pick) of what they'd pay to replace him is at least as high as the cost of a long term deal. Yes, he has a very high drop rate. His average depth of target was -1.5 - he doesn’t run routes or line up out of the backfield often. He’s not a very good pass blocker. He’s probably in the 3rd tier of all around backs IMO, despite being a great fit in this offense. I understand why they paid him, I just disagree with the reasoning, as a firmly entrenched “don’t pay running backs” team member. I hope it does work, and enjoy watching him on Sundays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krauser Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, JDBrocks said: Yes, he has a very high drop rate. His average depth of target was -1.5 - he doesn’t run routes or line up out of the backfield often. He is a running back, not a slot receiver (like Ekeler was last year). The RBs who routinely get used as downfield targets play in spread systems. Those RB routes are not more valuable than having an actual WR running those same routes. The drop rate isn’t a big deal, doesn’t typically project forward as a reliable indicator. 2 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: He’s probably in the 3rd tier of all around backs I think you’re just about the only one who wouldn’t rank him at or very near the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriminalMind Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) Delete Edited September 12, 2020 by CriminalMind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingsrule Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 3 hours ago, JDBrocks said: I disagree that he is the best offensive player. O’Neill is the best player on offense, and is certainly a top 5 talent at his position. I’d also argue that Theilen and Cousins are better when you weigh availability. I don’t want to rehash the RB value thing again, but this just doesn’t make sense. For a team as cash strapped as the Vikings are. They seem to go against the grain of the modern team building, and have had only moderate at best post-season success. Cook will need to have near MVP level production in the first couple of years of this deal to make it worth it as the roster is currently constructed, imo... I agree. My biggest concern with Cook the player, not the position, is his ability to stay healthy down the stretch and be effective. Can’t say he is reliable. Cook will definitely need to be in the conversation as a top RB and remain healthy for the contract to be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, vikingsrule said: I agree. My biggest concern with Cook the player, not the position, is his ability to stay healthy down the stretch and be effective. Can’t say he is reliable. Cook will definitely need to be in the conversation as a top RB and remain healthy for the contract to be worth it. We have to wait and see what the contract really looks like. If the Vikings get the first three years of that extension plus this year for the $28M that is guaranteed it isn't a bad deal. It wouldn't matter that there are a couple option years totaling ~$35M after the next four. The team would effectively have added $27M and three years, which would mean getting him for $9M per year. That wouldn't be bad. I am not saying that I think Cook gets nothing in the next four years above the guaranteed salary, I am saying it is possible. We don't know. How much Cook actually gets and how much is funny money in option years will determine whether the deal was a good move. If Cook's practical guarantees are anything close to the $12.6M AAV of the extension then I would join those with concerns about the contract. Based on what we have seen, at its best it could be a very good deal for the Vikings even though they have have had to give one more year of practical guarantee than I would have wanted before the two option years. What if the deal was this: $15.5M SB 2020: $1.33M guaranteed salary (guarantee the salary he was already all but guaranteed to make this year) 2021: $4M guaranteed 2022: $4M guaranteed 2023: $4M guaranteed 2024: $16.2M 2025: $18M Edited September 12, 2020 by Cearbhall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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